Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In Florida, you can't touch an indigo,...period. If you do, you risk jail time, and or serious fines. That's fine for the wild population. But there is no such thing as a captive population in Florida, or Georgia. And yet the burmese python is sold at every pet shop, and herp show, by the hundreds of thousands. And when these animals grow too large for their keeprs to feed, and care for, or when their owners grow tired of the animal, it is released into the wild,...along with any number of other species, i.e,; anacondas, monitors, iguanas, etc. My guess is that soon we will also be seeing other alien species reproducing, and upseting the natural balance. And yet you cannot obtain a permit to own an indigo down there unless you are a well connected lawyer, like Curt H., the only private citizen I am aware of who has a permit down there. I tried to obtain such a permit. I was told by the FFW employee who is in charge of these permits that she does not see why anyone should be allowed to do so. And you can forget the idea of captive breeding, and or sales,...activities which are perfectly legal in other states. But if you are a wealthy land developer, you can obtain permission to bulldoze habitat, and kill, destroy, and entomb indigos, and gopher tortoises, and any other animal that gets in the way. But don't even think about going in ahead of time to remove these animals to help bolster the gene pool of an already weak captive population. To me,...the whole thing does not make sense. In my mind, they should allow a liscencing process for collectors to remove these animals for captive breeding. They should allow regular folks to keep, breed, and sell captive bred/born indigos. And they should ban invasive alien species like the burmese python. In my mind they are literally protecting the indigo to death. Now lets see what kind of stink this stirs up. Let's here what everyone thinks about this subject.

Great post.

One must look at this from the state's point of view, on the macro level.
Most state level wildlife agencies are already over burdened insufficiently staffed and substantially under funded. They simply do not harbor the resources to create a permitting and regulatory entity to over see the captive husbandry or distribution of an endangered species native to their state for which only a minute few are going to be interested in keeping.
The state of Florida has its hands full trying to protect all of the “game” species, both land and aquatic, from poachers and over harvesting by sport fishermen and hunters, not to mention host of marine mammals which inhabit the state that must be monitored and protected.
When you consider the full scope of what a wildlife agency is responsible for, catering to a single species and a minority group, such Dry enthusiasts, is the last thing upon their agenda. This translates to the easiest means, for regulating such an animal within its native state, as enforcing a blanket ban to prevent anyone residing within a state, native to the protected species in question, from keeping, breeding and selling them. This removes all doubt as the legality of the animal/s in question; if you have it, it’s against the law! Much like Arizona, California, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah have done in regards to Heloderma. I’m not crazy about it, but I am not going to bash an overwhelmed agency, trying to do the best they can with what they have, for such, as I believe doing so is also discrediting the biologists and enforcement professionals, who have devoted their education and career to such agencies; and who are we to say we know better than they?
For those who seriously want change, I suggest educating yourself in a capacity to become a part of the organization making the decisions and make your voice heard, or mentor a youngster, or two, and instill upon them the passion and desire to do so.
Well, I am going to get off the soapbox now, but we cannot lay all the blame upon wildlife agencies alone, as they did not cause the demise of wildlife an habitat, but have been afforded to role preventing the further demise of such…

Best regards,

Jeff
-----
Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

You both raise excellent points. Hopefully the powers that be will respectfully consider both sides and make decisions in the best interest of the species.

Many of the rules enforced by Game and fish lead you to own others species and importation. I am referring to water turtles as well as other species. You can't own more than x amount of Florida box turtles. But you can have redfoots, yellowfoots and the rest. I had a friend that found a desert box turtle roaming loose. The idea of laws and the protection of species leads to the importation of others. Than that will lead to dumping. I find it hard to understand how I can get an Eastern Indigo from California legally. But not own it in Florida. As far as overworked that depends. We had a local reptile show. Where four officers showed up in plain clothes. The total amount of vendors was less than 20. I can't remeber where I read the article, but I would say hundreds of permits and given each year to bury Gopher Tortoises, but they are illegal to own. Makes no sense.

I may be off base, but it sounds to me as if you are attempting to compare apples to oranges.
Rules, regulations and sheer availability will determine what species are available and what are not. There were many species being imported long before the US enacted the ESA, so I do not see your point to this regard, or how it associates with the dilemma at hand. Could you further expound upon your reasoning? I do not ask to be rude, just trying to clarify such.
I cannot think of a single state which will allow an individual to maintain in captivity a species listed to the ESA and native to the resident’s state, without jumping through quite a few hoops. You can keep the species you indicated, as they are not listed by the state or ESA as being threatened or endangered.
It should be quite easy to understand why you cannot own a captive produced D. couperi from California in Florida. They are an ESA listed species native to Florida and Florida maintains it is easier to regulate the captive maintenance of the species by banning all, or most, individuals from keeping them in captivity. As I mentioned earlier, if you have it, you have it illegally. This allows for easier enforcement and saves the agency a great deal of time and finances in determining who has animals of legal origins and who doesn’t.
As for the illegal dumping / escape of non-native species, such has been a problem in Florida since the early 50’s, once again pre-dating most regulations regarding the captive maintenance of reptiles anywhere in the US…

Best regards,

Jeff
-----
Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Hey Jeff, how are ya!
As far as the ESA is concerned,...isn't that a Federal thing which individual states have adopted as a guideline? I have been told by Vic, that the Feds don't care what state I live in.

The only reason things are the way they are,...is because it's the "easy" way to go. That does not make it the right way. I think. We can do better.

The common man can't get a permit to own an indigo in Fl.. Period. If you know someone who has, I'd like to meet them! The only one I know of is a lawyer,...go figure! But any idiot can go buy a burm, or conda, or monitor, and later release it. That really makes sense.

Sorry Jeff, but I can't afford to get the education needed to get that kind of job. So it's not my fault if my opinion isn't politically correct. I should not need a PHD in order to be heard, and respected by the powers that be. Government works for the people,...not the other way around! Who are they to say we don't know what we are doing?

If it were legal to purchse, possess, and keep captive bred indigos in the state of Florida, breeders would line up for miles to get a permit. Especially if they could no longer breed pythons! If the "incidental take permit" would actually allow the permittee to collect, and sell the animals on that property, they would be collected, and sold, and their genes could then enter the captive gene pool, and make it stronger! If these things were allowed to happen, the poachers would go out of buisness. When these laws were first enacted, X number of years ago, the exotic pet trade, and the herp hobby was in it's infancy. Now it has evolved to the point where those old laws are outdated, and no longer accomplish what they were origionally designed to do.

I would further like to add that I am not bashing anyone. I am not discrediting anyone. I am not trying to disrespect anyone. I'm just trying to say that this thing is broke, and here's how to fix it. The quickest way to fail at anything, is to say it can't be done. The second quickest way, is to say it should not be done. It can, and should be done. And after we get it done in Florida, we can move on to all the other states with similar bans! In the mean time, I need Jeff to help me with this new power point program so I can start teaching kids like he said.

I tried to obtain a relocation permit so I could move indigos.
I was told they would move from the destroyed habitat.
In many areas where the last large tract facing destruction the only thing left around it are already developed. Any indigos that survive the bulldozers are roadkilled or killed by brave people riding the area of the dangerous animals. I agree with the orginal post that developers get to kill anything that is in the way while people concerned with helping them are restricted.
I still give snake lectures in central Florida and try to educate citizens not to kill snakes. Sometimes it works I hope.

Is it really that difficult to issue a permit for an out of state to be purchased and imported to Florida? Seems like the main responsibility would be on the keeper to maintain his permit and paperwork to proove his rightful ownership of an out of state snake. Obviously I wouldn't want to see a rubber stamp outfit setup, but there are plenty of very capable breeders that could help increase the diminishing numbers by using out of state stock.

Where is the increased load to the state workers other then verifying the out of state source? They already have to read the permit application. Well maybe they don't right now because they don't really approve any.

well put and the day they wise up to the reality of the 0 to 60 decline of pinesnakes, indigos, and southern hognose and all the others, they will allow floridians to breed and obtain one way or the other but only after they convince themselves that extintion is eminant and by then we will only have the longterm captive gene pool and the wild snakes will be gone. remember that 0 to 60, not a gradual decline, the state will apoligise one day to us all for their 1970's tactics, and the scale to me is proportiaint to drying up the everglades....big mistake.....

I often find it ironic that herpetoculturist who push for conservation often criticize the government for not allowing them collect the species being granted protections for conservation efforts. The issue is a double edged sword, but so long as there are viable populations, I do not believe in the removal of specimens in the wild, as doing so, as I have said before, makes the individual removed ecologically extinct. Also, I believe there are enough wild specimens confiscated by G&F officials each year, which are then passed along to zoological and academic entities, to negate the wild collecting of D. couperi for the benefit of the captive gene pool. Trust me, the zoos are willing to work with private herpetoculturist in regards to breeding loans and I have been preaching such for quite some time, but I know of only a single breeder, other than myself, who has taken the initiative to knock on some doors…

Best regards,

Jeff
-----
Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

dear sir, my name is gary ruffin and i have recently had a permit to have an indigo snake in captivity in florida. i am in west palm beach, fla. how ever i brought my animal into florida from virginia where i purchased it. i was allowed to bring my animal in and set it up in my home. let me explain to you what happened to my animal. i was approached by a gentleman from one of the nature parks in the boca raton area. my animal was a male that i had from a hatching. this gentleman stated to me that he worked at the nature center, they had a female there and they were starting captive breeding of indigo snakes. i confirmed his employment and i spoke to the center director. he comfirmed this information. i donated my animal to that project because 1. they had a breeding size female. 2. i was to recieve 2 of the hatchlings for myself 3. kids in my area had never even seen an indigo snake before and the educational value hit home with me. on several occasions i went down to that center to check on the progress of this "project", and was given the run around. i then discovered that the gentileman who originally brought the "breeding project" to my attention had been "let go". i was not given any info about the new home of my snake. thru my own research i located the animal at okeehelee park in the west palm beach area. iroically closer to my home. the snake had been out of my possesion for almost two years. i recently made several phone calls to the tallahassee offices that handle the indigo snake permits to see if they would assist me in securing another permit to have another indigo snake. boy did i hit a wall. no return calls no follow up, no nothing. months and months of wall crawl. finally the local fish and wildlife officer agreed to help me get thru to the florida capital. i finally spoke to a capt west and he agreed that my circumstances proved merit enough to purchase another indigo snake and keep it as a pet animal only. no breeding. now i am position to obtain my permit and the wall has gotten higher. no return calls, nothing. if anyone has any suggestions for me please email me at gtr33411@aol.com or call me at 561-7587218. i have left several messages for angela williams, she is the indigo snake permit coordinator at 850-9215990. i have left several messages for capt west at 850-4886253. i am not requesting the animal back from okeehelee nature center. i have personally watched the snake being presented to school age kids as a show and tell. i am not that selfish. the kids at okeehelee love that animal. i just think under the circumstances the state of florida should allow me to have another as a pet. i have all the documentation to prove my claim and it is available for review.