Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey Gang,

This is not about Cyrus, but about Darwin (beardie). I have posted to two bd forums but want your advice as well. Darwin still seems to be rather lethargic so in early April, I brought him in to get checked out since he has been so lethargic and have a fecal done. Vet said no coccidia, but found pinworms and gave injection of Ivomectin and another 2 weeks later. Just brought in followup fecal today and he STILL has pinworms and the vet is saying that they must be in his environment. I am so baffled! He doesn't even poop in his tank! He prefers to go in his little tub (spoiled? nah!). I use shelf liner, resin basking "rock", cork bark and few pieces of wood. He is in a 75gal tank. He is still rather lethargic, goes to sleep early even with the longer days.

As some who know me, you also knwo I am pretty obsessive about cleanliness, so no feeders, cage decor, plants, etc. are ever "shared" by Cyrus and Darwin. His whole tank gets cleaned with disinfectant every Sunday and his "floor" (shelf liner) is changed - he has 3 pretty patterns

from doing a little research, it seems that panacur is the usual treatment and even found some postings on other forums about vets not having any luck with the ivomectin and reptiles.

I usually go to another vet (ARAV) who is about 45 minutes away (Dr. G. was Luna's vet) but figured for "normal beardie stuff" this other herp vet (10 minutes) would be OK. Now I am beginning to think differently.

He will be back in on Thursday and will speak with him then, also have a call into my ARAV vet, who also won't be back until Thursday just to get his opinion. Oh, the vet tech said that the load was not a lot but same as it was last time. So my questions...

*Anyone familiar with the use of ivomectin for pinworms in herps?
*I have panacur, should I treat him myself?
*Would his lethargy be due to the pinworms themselves?

thanks!

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Ivermectin is a great drug - but it's tricky, and dosage is VERY important. It is what I consider, a "second choice" wormer. Panacur is very effective, very cheap, available over the counter, easy to dose, and nearly impossible to overdose. It is very gentle on their system, especially compared ot ivermectin, which CAN kill if overdosed.

If my animals have some nematodes, I just estimate a dose of panacur (it doesn't have to be perfect), and squeeze th epaste onto a bug. I repeat it in a few days to a week, and then check fecals.

Pinworms are probably from his feeders. Ivermectin should get rid of them, but I'd go with fenbendazol first. Even if you have to go with ivermectin, the fenbendazol will kill off much of the load, makign the treatment with ivermectin less stressful.

Maybe try switching cricket suppliers?

now see, this is where I am confused. This vet said that they CANNOT get the pinworms from crickets! That insect worms are different from herps, horses different from humans, etc.

I have been using Premium Crickets since July and they are the "cleanest" crickets I have ever seen. I never feed them until I have cleared their gut for 3 days (min). He also gets roaches and supers but I have had them forever.

So CAN they get pinworms from feeders?
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Well, pinworms are able to be reinfected, not requiring an intermediary host. I forget if it's NOT possible to get them from insects, but I know it IS possible to get them without a host insect. What you may need to do is to soak him in a solution that kills off the pinworms - there could be eggs all over him.

EW!!! how could they be all over him? Would the vet not have noticed? Can I see them with a 16x hand lens??
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

You may also want to check your gut load that you use for the crickets. What can happen is even though the food in your gutload is 'natural', it also means that is it probably not processed and "cleaned". If they take say spirulina, or dried wheats and vegetables or even fruits and nuts and grind them up, there is still insects, insect crap and possibly rat and bird crap on them, and these get grinded up and fed to the crictets. Who knows really if the crickets carry these in there stomachs or act as hostes and carry them on their body. I used to get cricket gutload from somewhere and it didn't look right. It wasn't "clean" to me and just didn't look right, had big chunks of stuff in it and you can see the ingrediants were too dry. Now I get my cricket food from cricketfood.com and it's clean and powdery and smells fresh. (Even though I HATE crickets)
I'm not an expert, but I've done alot of research on this and although some claim that there is no way crickets can carry pinworms, I do think they can act as a host and either carry the worms on them or eat the crap that has eggs growing on it and pass them along.... Just my Humble Opinion...... I'm looking into getting a microscope that can transfer images onto my computer screen.... I will be one micro-scoping momma when I do!! LOL
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TFFF
(Tootie Freakin' Fruity Feenie)

yeah, I am not too sure about the whole feeders not being able to pass them along. I don't know the environment they (pinworms and eggs) need to survive in (cricket gut close enough to beardie gut?) but sort of doubt they would survive long in gutload - but that is mere speculation on my part. Eric says they could be all over Darwin!!! EW! Can they survive in normal dry air conditions?

I make my own gutload so feel pretty confident about the ingredients, but like you say, anything is possible.

I want to get a microscope, too. Not only for herp fecals but for many of my invert (Lep) pathogens. My spider friend at UNH who does research also uses the electron scanning microscopes - now THOSE are some COOL images!
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Well, the eggs could be on him. I know pinworms in humans can do some nasty stuff.

I've HEARD this, don't know if it's true or not.

The crawl out the anal opening at night, lay eggs around it, and then make a dash back "home". The eggs cause irritation (hence the itchy @** syndrome, and the scratching picks up the eggs. They are transferred to the hands and nails, where they eventually, end up back into the mouth. Nasty tales of pinworms crawling from one anus to the other in bed at night... probably NOT true.

You have officially given me nightmares....
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1.1 Cats -Siamese Emma, Asian Leopard Cat Hau-Li
2.2.Horses - Percheron Girls - Colea and Ivy - Thoroughbred Machine to Tower and my beloved Brilliant Display (Rainbow Bridge)
2.1 Leopard Geckos -Gamarrah, Gabera and Monster Zero
1.0 Miniature Goat - Betty
1.0 Dog - Bess
1.0 African Grey - Molly

I'll go ahead and check, just to make sure. Parasites are disgusting little creatures. Every time I pull a tick off of me in the field, or smash a mosquito that still has its stylus imbedded in me, I only WISH they had a soul so that I could find comfort in the knowledge that they were in insect/arachnid hell...

Ok, that might be a little harsh...

Parasites are fasinating freeloaders. The degree that which animals have evolved hand in hand with them is amazing. There has been some experiments showing that they can be necessary to some people. PEople with severe intestinal bleeding, for instance, have been cured by infections of pinworms - swine pinworms, so the infections don't become self-cycling. The immune system in these people attacks the intestinal lining, and causes great damage. When the immune system has WORMS to attack, it stops tearing the body to shreds, and focuses on the worms. We evolved(or were created, depending on your point of vieW) to deal with them, and when they are removed from the picture, strange side affects can result.

It's like chameleons - my WC deremensis had massive appetites, and would eat 10 insects a day, but woudl not gain weight - they were not skinny, but just not putting on weight. I was sure they were not gravid a month later, so I wormed them (fenbendazol). After the second treatment, I cut their intake to a few insects, every OTHER day. They got fat in less than a month, and a year later, I lost one who was, as it turns out GROSSLY obese.

The high rate of female deremensis dying eggbound may be related to obecity - they can get massive fat pads, that could easily block the eggs from passing.

I'm thinking that deremensis might be easier to raise if they are NOT wormed! What I'm doing, is feeding the other female only 2-3 times a week, one insect per day - usually a zoophobus beetle or tenebrio beetle. She's maintaining weight just fine. The key is to not starve them, as starvation can increase the likelihood of fatty liver disease.

http://www.drgreene.com/21_1157.html

"At night, the pregnant female migrates from the colon, out through the child's anus and onto the skin of the buttocks. There she violently expels all of her eggs and dies. Some of the eggs become airborne and land elsewhere in the child's room, but the great majority of the fertilized eggs stay on the skin of the child's buttocks."

What a nightmare... and these are the "harmless, cute and cuddly" nematodes... you dont' want to know about ascarids.. no you don't. Big, pencil sized worms that can, in bad situations, migrate UP the digestive tract, pushign through the duodenum, into the stomach, where the digestive acids burn the worm, causing it to convulse, causing You intense nausea, vomiting up a large, pencil sized worm...

Now the next time anyone starts complaining about the "evils" of civilization, and how much better it would be if we could all live in "harmony with nature", remember, part of that means some, less scroupulous aspects of "nature" are going to be living in harmony with your digestive system.

I couldn't help myself - I've had coffee...

I wrapped up Darwin and put him in a drawer to sleep last night :-O
It was getting late and I wanted to really soak and clean everything good (I do this every Sunday, but Eric's comment about eggs being ON HIM freaked me out!

I diluted some panacur in a warm bath and bathed him in it for about 5 minutes, then rinsed him off.

I know kids them them all the time (I am sure most of US did as youngin's - as gross as it is to think about!). Whatever you do don;t do a Google image search for pinworms (w/o also using reptiles or something else) the photos were so gross I couldn't look! OK, all you weirdos, I know SOME of you are going to now go do that search.

The more I learn about the vet giving ivemectin the more pissed I am getting. Anyway, I will be speaking with my ARAV vet, Dr. G., tomorrow and made an appt. with him for Friday morning just in case. So if this Dr. (we'll call him Dr. X) got rid of all the coccidia back in Feb(?) then he doesn't even have anyone in there to do battle with. Damn. No wonder he has been feeling crappy! My poor, sweet little guy...

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Who discovered pinworms... was it the doctor pin wormus or whatever his name was, and how did he discover them if most people are a-symptomatic, from an animal or did he go around checking rectums... LOL... maybe he was a proctologist... hmmmm... something to think about,... or not!!! And YES Lele, some of us wierdos just can't help but go and do the search. But feel comforted... you now are not alone with your haunting images, MOST of the rest of us can share your disgust... haha

I hope I can remember all the things that I want to cover in this....
I have never used ivermectin for pinworms in any of my reptiles. It has been used for other parasites though. Fenbendazol is what has been used for any type of round worm/pin worm in my reptiles.

You said..."his vet said that they CANNOT get the pinworms from crickets! That insect worms are different from herps, horses different from humans, etc."...generally the vet is right. Most parasites are species specific....but there are some that can live/exist in another host (intermediate, sometimes) and be passed eventually.
http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0103e&L=waterdragon&T=0&F=&S=&P=2237

I know that humans can get pinworms from a rat. (You don't want to know the rest of that story...and I won't tell it anyhow! It would spoil a good night's sleep for lots of you!)

I also had a verru. chameleon that had a type of stomach worm. She pooped some out when I fed her waxworms. I took them to the vets and the parasitologist studied them. He wanted me to leave her infested until they could get a male out of her. (The type of parasite that she had would only eat her food and cause her no harm as long as I fed her well.) I never could get a male out of her....and she lived to a ripe old age. When she died, the body was taken for autopsy and the person doing the autopsy was told to give any parasites he found to the parisitologist....and there was a male so they were able to identify the species.

Just for fun...
http://www.rmca.org/Articles/worms.htm

Itch, itch, scratch, scratch.....is everyone else itchy too??

Hope you get the problem solved, lele!

I hope I can remember all the things that I want to cover in this....
>>I have never used ivermectin for pinworms in any of my reptiles. It has been used for other parasites though.
in reptiles? Everyone on the BD forums are saying never give it to a BD. This is of course on my list for Dr. G (good vet) tomorrow.

Fenbendazol is what has been used for any type of round worm/pin worm in my reptiles.

Had I just brought in the fecal initially and they called I would have done some of my own research, found this out and dosed him myself since I do keep it on hand. But I brought him in so I trusted the vet to give him what was necessary.

You said..."his vet said that they CANNOT get the pinworms from crickets!" ...generally the vet is right. Most parasites are species specific....but there are some that can live/exist in another host (intermediate, sometimes) and be passed eventually.

it was his definitiveness on the matter, along the same lines as his total dismissal re: coccidia in BD's

I know that humans can get pinworms from a rat. (You don't want to know the rest of that story...

thank you for that!

that is really interesting about your verru! Was the species something new? Did they name it after you or your cham?? lol Yeah, sure would love to have some little parasite with my name attached to it!

thanks for your info and I'll report back after the visit tomorrow

lele
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Re: my comment..."I have never used ivermectin for pinworms in any of my reptiles. It has been used for other parasites though."
and your responser..."in reptiles? Everyone on the BD forums are saying never give it to a BD. This is of course on my list for Dr. G (good vet) tomorrow."...it was used for a water dragon that had an unusual mite under its skin. Worked well and did no harm to the water dragon either.

You said..."it was his definitiveness on the matter, along the same lines as his total dismissal re: coccidia in BD's"...I understand!

You said..."that is really interesting about your verru! Was the species something new? Did they name it after you or your cham?? lol Yeah, sure would love to have some little parasite with my name attached to it!"....it was something new in a chameleon....don't know if it was previously undiscovered though. Nope...they didn't name it after me...at least not so far. The paper is still in the works. I was teased about having a fungus named after me though. It was found on one of my chameleons and had never been recorded before. There are procedures that have to be followed in naming things like that though...and I didn't "qualify". I really don't mind though! I'd rather have something "prettier" named after me! LOL!

You said..."thanks for your info and I'll report back after the visit tomorrow"...waiting to hear how things went.

like learning wehat plnats are toxic - can the diner tell the others? Thanks goodness they figured a lot of that out in the cave days - lol! But things like pinworms - who was poking around in someone's poop in the first place?
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Hahhahhahaa , Drill right through those undies LOL

Erics pretty much got it, Toddlers are nortoriuos for having pinworms, . Believe it or not nose-pickers (little kids) are good indicators to have them checked , and the itching or grabing at the pants in the back Kids can get pin worms from playing in the dirt, where animals have eliminated, so forth.

A neighbors childred had them when my kids were little and she had to tell us because her child spent the night here and there. Then you have to call your doctor and everyone has to take a pill to kill the dang things. Wash all the bedding, clothes, ect....

So lele it really does not matter that you CLEAN his cage if he had them and they layed eggs they can be around

Just get out some extra pillows and set a few extra dinner plates (the worms don't eat too much) but do like a nice comfy bed at night,and and redoaks has some METAL UNDIES you can use ehhehehehehe ROFLMAO

I too would use panacur, never without it .
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PHEve / Eve

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