Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A small bit of controversy in the herp world is over the correct usage of terminology, such as intergrade vs. hybrid and so forth.

We are those who breed hybrid animals, and that is hybridization. What is the correct term here: hybriders or hybridizers or hybrid breeders?

I'm pretty sure that hybriders is wrong, yet I see it in nearly every post. Hybrid breeders is long, and most won't take the time to type it. I've always used hybridizers as it sounds right and I believe it to be grammatically correct. What do you think?

Are there any other terms off the tops of you guys/gals' heads that we need to clarify while on the topic?
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~Venom~

Hybrid Breeders Association

I've been meaning to post these for a while.

Hybrid: Any crossbreeding between two organisms with differing taxonomical classifications.

Intra-specific hybrid: A cross breed between two organisms within the same species. This is the more correct term for an intergrade.

Interspecific hybrid: A cross breed between two organisms from two differing species.

Intergeneric hybrids: A cross breed between two organisms from two differing genera.

As for the breeder part we're breeders, what else can I say if you need to qualify it with anouther term that fine. I would probably type out hybrid breeder but thats just me.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

Yea I would just type out hybrid breeder. I don't think hybridizer sounds right.

Agreed, Hybrid Breeder is the way to go...Hybridizer just sounds idiotic, and NOT grammatically correct by any means.

I always considered an Intergrade as a cross that would occur naturally in the wild, where overlap of territories would happen.

I only meant that it sounds grammatically correct in the sense that "to hybridize" is the infinitive verb pertaining to the creation/breeding of hybrids, therefore someone who performs this action would be a hybridizer. Hybrider is just wrong. That's all I was saying as it bugs the heck out of me when people who obviously aren't stupid and have good education continually use words that are by no means correct (ie. "most better", "those/these ones", albino rather than amelanistic in an animal with more than one pigment, etc.), ESPECIALLY when talking about subjects scientifically.

But I too believe that "Hybrid Breeder" is the correctest of the terms .
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~Venom~

Hybrid Breeders Association

are do you mean more than one pigment as in black and yellow or no black but red and yellow?
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jake

my addiction:
1.1? normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
0.1? amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)
hybrid breeders association
hybrid haven

I mean that if ANY animal has ONLY one pigment, (be it red, yellow, blue, green, black, etc.) and it lacks that pigment, then yes, it is "albino". But if it contains two or more, then "albino" simply will not suffice, as you need to use a much more descriptive word to tell WHICH pigment(s) are lacking (amel, anery, snow, etc.).

But when it comes to many different forms of the same recessive mutation, I too don't know what would be more correct.

Example: Hypo A and Charcoal (Hypo B) in P. guttatus. Hypo A and B (and I've heard that there are two more now as well??) are fine, but if you cross two normal looking animals, and get a hypo, will you know which one it is if you don't know its herritage? In THIS case, it seems that common terms may serve better than scientific terms since there are more than one of the same. But I can't say for sure, so could someone with more knowledge on the subject reply?
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~Venom~

Hybrid Breeders Association

hey adam by your own definition interspecific & intergeneric are the same thing a hybrid.
and i dont know maybe its me but intra-specific seems to technical a term for intergrade but i digress.
as you know i have a hard time with people throwing the term hybrid around when the fact remains true hybrids are rarely discovered or occur in nature whilst intergrades often do occur where ssp.share range.

FTR imho hybrids are when a genus is crossed,intergrades are when a ssp. of the same genus cross,BIG DIFFERANCE ,,,,,,,,thomas

Hybrid: Any crossbreeding between two organisms with differing taxonomical classifications.

Intra-specific hybrid: A cross breed between two organisms within the same species. This is the more correct term for an intergrade.

Interspecific hybrid: A cross breed between two organisms from two differing species.

Intergeneric hybrids: A cross breed between two organisms from two differing genera.

They are all technical terms the word hybrid is simply any crossbreeding between two organisms with differing taxonomical classifications. There is no differentiation between if it is man breed or naturally occurring.

""hey adam by your own definition interspecific & intergeneric are the same thing a hybrid.""

While these might be paraphrased by myself they aren't my own definitions. I got them out of science journals and encyclopedias and confirmed them through reading reports on wild hybrids other then just herps, like mussels, birds, bacteria, fish, among others.

The word interspecific or intergeneric are just used to further explain the type of hybrid. So they are and are not the same thing as a iterspecific talks about a hybrid at the species rank and intergeneric talks about a hybrid at the genera rank.

"""and i dont know maybe its me but intra-specific seems to technical a term for intergrade but i digress.
as you know i have a hard time with people throwing the term hybrid around when the fact remains true hybrids are rarely discovered or occur in nature whilst intergrades often do occur where ssp.share range."""

The break down of the word intra-specific hybrid purely means that it is a hybrid that is from with in the same species complex. The word intergrade is simply a word that speaks about the merging of any two forms into a intermediate form or a staged range of intermediate forms.

"""FTR imho hybrids are when a genus is crossed,intergrades are when a ssp. of the same genus cross,BIG DIFFERANCE ,,,,,,,,thomas"""

If you think I'm wrong look them its that simple.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

i dont think your wrong or that i am right just stating what i beleive, i thought this discussion was about terminoligy and its uses in the HOBBY, and IMHO the terms interspecific,intra,etc are to scientific and quite frankly boring and non descriptive,for the HOBBY,,,sorry just my.02cents, again my opinion for the hobby to recognize first is what exactly a hybrid IS? MY opinion is a hybrid is what occurs when Genus is crossed such as has been done with elapheXgetula, etc, a crossing of Ssp. within the same genus IMHO would be considered an intergrade right or wrong its my opinion,,,,,,,,thomas

MY opinion is a hybrid is what occurs when Genus is crossed such as has been done with elapheXgetula, etc, a crossing of Ssp. within the same genus IMHO would be considered an intergrade

Your example itself is incorrect, and this is exactly the kind of thing we need to gaurd against. Elaphe is a genus, and getula is a species. "Elaphe x Lampropeltis" would be correct, as would "E. guttata x L. getula". (I do realize that Elaphe guttata is now Pantherophis guttatus. I just ran with his example.)

i thought this discussion was about terminoligy and its uses in the HOBBY, and IMHO the terms interspecific,intra,etc are to scientific and quite frankly boring and non descriptive

Actually, this hobby is quite scientific, to say the least. Prefixes such as inter- and intra- are actually MUCH MORE descricptive than just saying "hbrid", reguardless of how boring it sounds. This is also the case when some of us say "albino" referring to amelanistic, anerythristic, lavender, hypomelanistic, snow, hybino, ghost... That is just too general, and IMHO, the word "albino" should never be used when discussing ANY animal with more than one pigment.

I began this discussion so that we could determine the correct terms for all of us to know and use so that we can weed out all of the unnecessary "common" terms which are usually far to general and, quite frankly, wrong.

I hope I didn't sound to harsh. It wasn't intended that way!
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~Venom~

Hybrid Breeders Association

Hmm... I don't think I could have said it any better myself. nice post.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

you are correct in that getula is a species NOT a genus,but why do we need to "watch out" for this mistake? i think what needs to be established before scientific or other cute names are applied to anything is exactly WHAT a "hybrid" is which sadly HAS NOT been done ,talk about putting the cart before the horse,, imho a hybrid is a cross between genus and/or a species while manymanymany others beleive crossing diff. Ssp.within a species or genus is a hybrid,,,,,,,thomas

Well of course we need to watch out for this mistake... If I were to sell you a "guttatus X Lampropeltis", would you buy it? Probably not! Who knows WHAT the "Lampropeltis" part includes!

Sometimes putting the cart before the horse makes everyone stop and look at the big picture all at once .
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~Venom~

Hybrid Breeders Association

The correct term for those who make hybrids is hybridizer. Just type that term into google. Apparently, no one here has ever so much as glanced at a plant catalog. Plant breeders have been making hybrids for a long time and many decades ago they began to refer to those who make hybrids as "hybridizers", so Venom, score one for you.
I will also agree with you that this hobby is very scientific. I personally find it ioffensive and ignorant when any "hobby" just invents its own colloquial and often misinformed set of terms, taht are just arbitraily pulle out of...you get my drift. When a hobby uses terms these should be in line with the science to allow for communication across a wider psectrum.The biggest problem that all hobbies face is the myopy of tinking it is the end all and be all of existance; it's own little sun with it's own little sattelites. This is something I have fought for years in the hobby of the domestic fowl and my recent book is aimed at creating a system of names describing the many color varieties of domesatic fowl based on their genes, and not some colloquial, hokey and meaningless term. I think the herp hobby is already in far better shape, but it can only improve itself by making the effort to increase it's reliance on science.
Andyes, venom, albino is colloquial and quaint in regards to creatures with more than one type of pigment!
BDR
Panoplia Geneticus

"Hybridizer" still sounds stupid, and just because Plant people just "began referring to those that bred Hybrids" as such, does not make it correct. Sorry that none of us here have Plants as a hobby, but good for you!

This message IS meant to be harsh and mean:

Are you such a fool that you cannot see that, regaurdless of what your opinion is, "hybridizer" is the correct term used to describe someone who hybridizes? Hybridizer is, and always will be, correct in the English language grammatically. It's like saying, "I think origin_reptiles sounds STUPID, so I'm calling you orion_lizards!". You cannot win this one.
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~Venom~

Hybrid Breeders Association

LOL Venom...like I was responding to you??? KingMilk was the one that just came on here saying that the Plant people know more than we do, and we are too stupid to google the terminology.

But, whatever makes you happy

Im sorry that you are so easily offended. When you see that kind of defensiveness, it is usually because of tremendous insecurity and immaturity. However, your opinion is just that, and the "plant people decided to use it" because it is grammatically and scientifically correct.The term is much older than the plant people's usage of it and they use it because it is what science usess. It is the correct term and has been for a long time, so what you might want to do, mr onion_gizzards, is actually try reading something. And BTW, do you own this board? Did I need your permission to post? You say I just "jumped on here" and made a statement, yeah, well that's because it is a message board, where any members can post, so until you buy kingsnake.com, get used to it. I may not be here much, but I have every right to point out that you dont have a clue what you are talking about, and masybe the term sounds stupid to you because you dont have a clue what you are talking about. Go look up the term. It is a real term. Hybrid breeder is also applicable, but hybridizer is the proper term, when looking for a one word term and it is used extensively in science and many other fields. The propblem with little myopic people like you is that you dont know what your talking about, so you assign assinnine value judgements like "it sounds stupid", when the ignorance is yours, not a problem with the term. You are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion does not hold water and the difference between your "opinion" and mine is that mine is educated and yours is a product of your own myopy and lack of knowledge (obviously of grammer, the english language and the use of terminology in science). Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. Aggressive ignorance is a defensive mechanism that would rather attack and argue than to educate itself.So in the fufutyou might want to eduacte yourself before you attack someone who is educated.
BDR

Onion_Gizzards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was the funniest thing I have ever seen on this forum!! Ha I hope we all get a laugh and get over the harsh tone of it all, but I really like this thread. I am feeling so guilty for using the term “hybriders” in a post, but I apologized for it too in the same post. I thought it looked stupid right away and my reason for doing it was pure laziness and just not taking it all too seriously. I hope everybody just posts whatever you want regardless of political and grammatical correctness and let the world see you for who you are. Maybe some of you are not too shy to bare yer arse here and I think we are better off for that too. All welcome I say. I will try to get it right, but I admit I am not going to try very hard.

LOL, I agree that we dont need to try very hard to categorize ourselves, I certainly do not intend to waste much time or posts on it!! I do get a laugh at the "Scientists" on here that insist on the true definitions...maybe we should go back to the Latin and choose a name??

WOW...seems like with that post you might be the one that is defensive??

If anybody takes the time to re-read this thread, they will see that when I say "Jumped in", I am referring to your entering this thread and basically calling all of us morons for not regarding the taxonomy of plants. If this was not your intention, you need to work on your tact a bit, yes?

I certainly dont care much what you think of me, but attacking somebody is usually the last resort of the unintelligent, as you have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I am sure you can come up with better names than Onion_Gizzard, that seems a bit weak, maybe think about it for a while, get a Thesaurus out, burn some brain cells on it. Somebody here will explain "Thesaurus" to you, I am sure.

Lighten up, internet bullies are sad.

If you fellow herpers knew how much time a day I spent here in the forums and on HBA, you'd all think I was crazy. I think it is good for us to have a few "heated" discussions ever now and again to keep us coming back . (That was not my intention here, but that seems to be what has come of it.)

But seriously, as herpetologists, and especially hybridizers at that, we rely heavily on science in most aspects of what we do, whether it be breeding, deciding what to breed, incubating, herping the field, or just having a few snakes around as pets. That is why I believe that we should strive to keep it scientific whenever we can.

Above all, take pride in what you do, whatever it may be. Just don't be offended in someone pops in to correct you once in a while .
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~Venom~

Hybrid Breeders Association

Hey! I have to agree totally, thought you had brought up some good points in original post, and the discussion about what was the "correct" term and the "better sounding" term seemed to going fine.
I consider myself a Hybrid Breeder, at least I will when my 80 plus eggs hatch, but if somebody wants to call me a Hybridist...I can live with it.
as far as people dropping in to correct others, I believe there is a nice way to get the point across.

I still think it should be hybrid breeder. Because we aren't hybridizing anything all we do is put snakes together to breed.

Agreed, we as breeders are not genetically changing or splicing species together, just introducing species to breed that may not meet under normal wild conditions. And we are certainly not forcing these snakes to breed...just hoping!!