Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,

I was talking with one of our local wood workers about building our next snake cage. We are finshing our corns cage and he helped cut wood since we did not have the tools.

Our next cage will need to be water resistant due to high humidity for BRB. Now if we building it ourselves he suggested using Tung Oil as a sealer and waterproofer. I did some reading on this and it seems to be perfect for this type of cage. It is non toxic and natural plus leaves the natural wood its color. Has anyone used this product for a reptile cage? I would like to hear any experiance at all with this product and reptile cages. He will apply it for us since he gets it in big size.

Thanks
Tamara

Tamara,

I would not try this, especially for a BRB.

What type of wood is being used on the cage? Is it plywood, solid wood, or what?
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

I copied and pasted this from a woodworking forum. The topic was a finish for a dining room table that won't see near the moisture that a Rainbow Boa cage will see. The reply below was regarding tung and linseed oil and the person making the reply is one of the most respected names in the finishing/woodworking field. Reading this guy's work will make your head spin.

At any rate, his replay regarding tung and linseed oil:

Neither is really a finish. They both are absorbed into the wood and work well as a coloring and/or to "pop" the grain or figure. Neither will give any water, watervapor or abrasion protection. Unless overcoated with a film finish, both will require periodic reapplication to maintain any satifactory protection.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Thats interesting because from what I have heard and read it is just the oppisite. Tung is a major water repealer that is used in china on boats. Even the web sites I have read confirm that. As far as reaplying that is not so much a issue for me. I am just looking for a natural waterproofing for the cage. What I am trying to do is stay away from melamine(sp?). What are some other ways to do this?

Tamara

Chris, can expand on this but I would use vinyl film.

Melamine still has its place it the hobby, its flat, cheap and half way a good sealed product. Topping it with vinyl film would make it a wonderful product.

I just wanted to say that IMO it still has its place. Granted in can't replace the look of natural wood.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

Remember the sealant i used on the big baltic birch cage i built ??? lol its a "plastic base" sealant . My old hard drive did a crash burn routine and i was unable to retrieve info from it a few weeks back ( still ahave it for trying )

But as to tung oil ...

Yes it can be a water "Repelleant" BUT and heres the catch Water doesnt have HALF the effect tht heat , humidity & mold will have on it in this useage. While toung oil is normally used like "Murphys oil soap as somthing to bring ut the color / resilience of the wood ... in this case im with chris the effect will be canceld out as the tung oilk only oenetrates the fiber of the wood , it will serve no purpose as a water / moisture barrie to keep urinates / Condensation etc from forming and groing molds and soaking up a rich dark nasty color.

As a 10 yr cabinet maker before caging , i have uised it . The tung oild were mainly for china hutches floors etc as a waa / finish not as a "protector / repellent" as many ppl think.

Now to the product i asked chris with its so close to the tip of my tounge im embarrased lol . Its been three yrs since having that info on my old PC hard drive and i havent done woodwork since then ( Sigggggh's ) but the product can be sprayed or painted on with a brush ( natural horse hair or china bristol) is best as the fiber from poly brushes wont come out in the finish. But this sealant will go on clear with maybe aslight color chnge on natural wood ( I posted a picture a fw weeks back cant remember the thrad of the cage i mentioned to chris ) but it has held up to argus munitors / Frilled dragons/ Burms ? JCP's/ etc in a commercial store useage display thats HUGE !!

so to make a long story short at the end tung oil will not be the best suited use .....

befor using that i would go with melamine with a vyil shelf liner ( Again Chris Harpers the man for this useage /application) other then that it all depends what and how fancy ya wanna go with your enclosures, IMHO if you wanna go nice n fancy go with a simple wood frame ( solid qoods & polky coatings) and then use gall & mirror clips to hold it in and make a nice GLASS that wot warp scrathwhen cleaned cage ... minor wood shoing an can be easy and elegant all at the same time ...

WOW i typed all that lol
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Builder of Professional Reptile Enclosures ,Plastic caging , Standard & Professional Breeder Rack Systems
junglehabitatsplastics.com/

Remember the sealant i used on the big baltic birch cage i built ?? lol its a "plastic base" sealant.

Alan,

Was that big Argus cage (the one held together with pocket holes) made from Baltic Birch plywood?

Regardless, I don't remember the product. I think you and I engaged in a long thread a year or so ago and you contacted the supplier and found it was discontinued. Does that ring a bell or do I have a different product?

I do regret not trying the stuff. It sounded like it had excellent properties for the price.

For a food safe finish I still really like the bartop epoxies but they just have to be applied so thick that they end up being expensive. And they don't work in some reptile applications where there is a powerful localized heat source. This really only applies to some lizard cages.

I'll see if I can dig something up on that sealant.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Or was it a Woodkote Vinyl Sealer? I found reference to that in the archives.

But in another post you called it a catalyzed four-part mixture. I have never heard of anything other than a one part vinyl sealer.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

yes chris it was a " Woodkote Vinyl Sealer" but it was a 4 part mix .. for spraying . there was "Jap dryer which was used to aid in the drying process this was more of like fast evaporating addiative to aid in the drying so you didnt have to dea lwith long dry times and or worry about sags in clear coats much like a auto finish is applied with so it can be recoated faster.

but yes the 'woodkote was the manufacture of the product we ( tweaked it to our needs lol ) Next time im in raleigh ill have to snap pics of the setup it still loks as good now as it did some 3 1/2 4 yrs ago almost lol . last time iwas there 3 weeks ago he had it full oif breeding frilled ragoon and had already got two clutches from them this yr . hes had them in there the past several months andthey have been breeding like porn stars lol
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Builder of Professional Reptile Enclosures ,Plastic caging , Standard & Professional Breeder Rack Systems
junglehabitatsplastics.com/

Yeah the argus cage ,, man i cant beleive how fast ya forget when ya dont do something in 3 yrs lol .

The one your thinking of was the Behr ' build 50" that was sold at Home depot . that was a bar finish sealant and yes it went on like molasseses lol

the one i touched on once that time man i am kicking myself hard right now .. this was a "plastic" base clear sealant , went on like skim milk but was SUPER Dyrable finish and took few coats to do so , being it was a plastic base ( ot sure the properies) it would really allow for mold growth as we both hit on in the tung oil .

ok im going googling now ... .
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Builder of Professional Reptile Enclosures ,Plastic caging , Standard & Professional Breeder Rack Systems
junglehabitatsplastics.com/

So was this vinyl sealer a four-part mixture? I have heard of catalyzed vinyl sealers (which I guess would be two-part) but never a four part mixture.

So was that Argus cage built from Baltic Birch plywood or was it built from solid Baltic Birch?

If plywood, was each side an assembled face frame or was each side cut from a single sheet of ply?

It looks like each side is an assembled face frame from the pictures.

Also, did you leave the plywood edges exposed or did you edge band them with something.

I'm asking all of these questions because my wife saw some chairs built from baltic birch plywood and wants me to duplicate that look for her orchid cabinets.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Chris , that cage was built out of solid board baltic birch.

but i know the lok your wifes talking with ply wood and YES she has impeccable tastes !!! lol IMHO the ice lines of a hi grade laminated ply wood used in furinture such as chairs / coffee & end tables etc is to be compared to none. I like Birch for use in many wood projects because with the proper stains you can make birch mimic chery wood for a fraction of the costs .

Im thining you wife is also into many of Frank lloyd wright designs and many of the dutch / german & scandanavian designs then ??? Man i sooo miss doing custom case werks lol ( german thing )

If im also batting in the same field im thinking these chair design are liekly to be steam formed ctyles " with likely slightly rouned edges ? and showing te many grains using like a 5-8 ply hi grade ply wood ?? am i in the ball park LOL

wow look there is barringer a new site Woodworkinghobbyist.com lol
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Builder of Professional Reptile Enclosures ,Plastic caging , Standard & Professional Breeder Rack Systems
junglehabitatsplastics.com/

Actually my wife does not like a much of the Scandinavian stuff, but she does like some of the baltic birch ply stuff with the exposed edges.

I'll play around with a couple of different looks and see what works best. I'll probably do a clear de-waxed shellac to seal the grain and give it just a hint of color and then seal the interior with that bartop epoxy. We were going to go all out with a slate interior etc. but have decided to keep it cheap for now and see what we like and dislike.

Regarding the sealers discussed in this thread, I'm a bit surprised to hear about the performance you got from a vinyl sealer. I thought the stuff was primarily used to allow different topcoats to be used, but then again I've never heard of the four-part stuff.

Did you also topcoat it with a catalyzed lacquer? From one of your posts that I dug up tonight it sounded like you put on one coat of vinyl sealer, then stain, and then catalyzed lacquer.

I would think most of the durability you've witnessed in that Argus cage would be from the lacquer, if you did indeed use it.

The other product you mentioned (the one that goes on like skim milk) sounds like an acrylic varnish, of which there are numerous types. I guess the one from General Finishes is supposed to be the best.

And now there are the catalyzed waterborne polys out of Europe. They are said to outperform even marine grade solvent/oil based varnishes for scuff and water resistance. They are floor finishes. If I could buy the stuff in smaller quantity I'd love to try it in a reptile cage. Extremely low VOC and has to be cleaned up with acetone once it's cured.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

It is a bit misleading to call tung oil waterproof. It's more like a wood preservative. It can soak into and protect the individual wood fibers, but the water can still get in there and cause "toxic" mold and mildew to grow. Sure it is used on boats, but these boats would still float without it. The wood might not last as long but it will still have mold, mildew and other microbrial growth present.

Do you really want that in your Rainbow Boa cage?

What do you want from a "natural" finish. If it's non toxic you're after, "natural" has little bearing on that. There might be a finish that is less toxic than another, but the more toxic finish can actually be less toxic in the long run. There are piles of documents on this on the internet if you care to read it. One example would be the many epoxies. Straight out of the can epoxy resin is extremely toxic, much more so than oil-based polyurethane. But seal a wooden box with both and a week later you could drink water out of the epoxy sealed box (in fact, many residential water supplies are stored in tanks sealed with this once extremely toxic epoxy).

Now take the polyurethane sealed box. A week later it might not even hold water and if you were to stick your head in there for an hour you'd have a nasty headache at a minimum.

Now let me ask you this. Which sealant would you rather use on the Rainbow Boa cage? I would hope you'd pick the more toxic epoxy.

Also, many natural things are toxic. Children can chew on pencils made from W. Red Cedar all day long with no ill effect. But it is toxic to reptiles and the dust can be extremely toxic to the woodworkers who create dust from it. It's all about application. Using tung oil in a boa cage might protect the wood but it won't do anything to prevent microbrial growth on the wood. This is why cutting boards sealed with tung oil need to be kept as dry as possible and stored carefully. It is alway why you're supposed to build cutting boards from natural impervious wood and/or woods that have anti-microbrial properties.

Before I go on to make a recommendation I'd like to hear more about what you want from the finish and what the cage is constructed from.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

" It is alway why you're supposed to build cutting boards from natural impervious wood and/or woods that have anti-microbrial properties"

Maple is the first thing comming to mind lol . another good application of tung oils is on Maple "butcher block counter tops / Mahogany/teak woods/ RedWood to name a few .
Im with Chris here , to better get a feal for your useage more info is needed but as per my last post when in doubt ... lol more glass is good !!!!
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Builder of Professional Reptile Enclosures ,Plastic caging , Standard & Professional Breeder Rack Systems
junglehabitatsplastics.com/

more glass is good !!!!

I agree, glass is good. It's as non-toxic as you can get. Seeds of some of the most delicate plants in the world can be cultured in glass tubes.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Seeds of some of the most delicate plants in the world can be cultured in glass tubes.

And in water stored in containers that were sealed in once extremely toxic epoxy.

Sorry, but the natural vs. un-natural, toxic vs. non-toxic issues are much more complex.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Ok one thing I forgot on the sites I was reading about Tung Oil is that is was mixed with another product. Here is a link to one
http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html Tung oil is a mold free treatment for wood. I have heard from a couple of people on this that wood treated will not mold up.

Anyways, we are just finshing our corns cage/s. What we did with that is used the birch ply 3/4 with the polyacrylic as a sealer. Floor with did with self sticking vinle tiles.

Now I love this birch so would like to use it again. I just need to protect it from high moister and humidity. Either that or buy a platic cage which I prefer not to do since I cant get the height I want at the same price of making one. Cage is to be 5'Lx2'Dx 15"H.

Be nice if we had an edit choice.

Reread your post and thought to add this. I want aomething for the cage that one will hold up to the high humidity and protect the wood from moister plus not harm my snake in the short and long run. I am not worried about the bottom so much as the sides where you will see the effects of the water more with warping and water damage. I can title the bottom but I would prefer not to do that to the sides and top if I can help it. If I have too I will live with it but I want to make sure off all my choises first.

Tamara

Why are you worried about using a "natural" product to seal birch laminated plywood that will offgas formaldehyde and other preservatives for years to come?

Are you aware that plywood is not supposed to be used to build birdhouses because of this offgassing?

Tung oil will do nothing to prevent this offgassing, by the way.

I think you'd be making a mistake by using tung oil, sorry. I don't believe it will be a mold free application for birch laminated plywood used in a Rainbow Boa cage.

I think polyacryclic with a tile floor is a much better choice. You might also tile the first couple of inches of the walls or however high the substrate will be.

If you really want to use the tung oil you might be able to put it on as a first coat and then topcoat with Polyacrylic.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Ok I had one of those duh you dummy moments this morning. LOL You are right about the plywood. I would love to go without ply and maybe I shall look into that with the birch by having our woodworker get it and cut it for us. Do not have a car that would fit a full size sheet from lumber yard.

I thank you all for this has helped make up my mind on the choise and I am sticking to what we did with the other cage. Might not get the ply this time but other than that it shall be close to the other. Sometimes I just need to talk it out to get it straight. One thing I did remember was a closed cage will have the higher humidity without alot of extra spraying. So in that case I shall be OK with what we are doing. Hope these post helps others in their cage designs. Thank You again

Tamara

I still think plywood is a great material for cages. But if one is to take the "all-natural" mantra to completion then plywood would be a poor choice.

There are always tradeoffs when it comes to reptile enclosures. I don't see a situation where a tung oil would be an acceptable tradeoff for a reptile cage.

One "all natural" sealer that I would use is shellac, but not in a Rainbow Boa cage.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Chris,

Its not that I am taking a all natural way with this. I just thought it was nice that tung oil was natural. As you said it would not be the best idea because of haveing to reapply it. So I shall stick with the polyacrylic.