Reptile & Amphibian Forums

as I was replying to "new" Steve's post about sphinx moths I got thinking....every now and then someone posts that their cham was fine one day and dead the next morning for "no apparent reason," or that it has been fine for 2 years and "suddenly got sick, started acting weird, falling over...." Well, do we ever think to ask what it was fed the day, or days, before? Had it been fed an insect caught at a light, found on a plant or climbing a wall?

In my 3 1/2 years on this forum, I don't think it has been asked :-o. Normally, it is not something we think about. Insect toxicity comes up when some asks a specific question, but what if that otherwise healthy cham, with a great mom and/or dad, was fed a lightning bug, a monarch butterfly, a handful of milkweed bugs (MW bugs are often found congregating) the day before?

Granted, there can certainly be other reasons, but something to consider...

lele, the bug lady
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

You said..."Well, do we ever think to ask what it was fed the day, or days, before? Had it been fed an insect caught at a light, found on a plant or climbing a wall?"...guess its something that we should think to ask in cases like these, eh??!!

Fire fles...
http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/99/8.19.99/lizards.html
"The Cornell biologists received similar reports of firefly toxicosis in White's tree frogs, which also are native to Australia and were fed fireflies by their owner in Ohio; in a rock lizard that is native to Central Asia and was fed a single firefly on Long Island, N.Y.; and in a chameleon, a native of Africa, that was fed five or six fireflies in Illinois."

http://www.thereptilecenter.com/Goliath-Horn-Worm
"Now if you have a garden full of tomatoes, green peppers, potatoes, eggplant, jimson, or petunias don’t pick the hornworms off your precious plants to feed to your reptile! These plants are very toxic to the reptile, but fine for the worm. If your snake, lizard, etc. eats on hornworms from a garden the worm will be toxic to the reptile. All reptiles require careful feeding for their best health."

Of course, tomato horn worms that have been raised specifically for lizards are okay.
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Does anyone know of any documentation about ladybugs being toxic to chameleons? This is the only article I could find about ladybugs being toxic to lizards...but it isn't specific...
http://www.redorbit.com/education/reference_library/?article_id=905

http://www.buginfo.com/articles/facts_butterflies.cfm
"Poisons in the body of a single Monarch Butterfly are sufficient to kill a small lizard, and cause severe vomiting in a large bird."
"Puss Moth caterpillars contain highly toxic poisons, and crushing a single caterpillar in your hand may cause temporary, but severe, paralysis in the arm."
"Glassy-wings and Heliconians are toxic."

Not toxic but...a warning just the same....
http://lllreptile.com/info/library/animal-care-sheets/chameleons/-/mellers-chameleon/
"It is recommended to remove the barbed hind legs of grasshoppers before offering them to chameleons as these can cause tears in the chameleon’s throat."

Just for "fun"...
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:AIcxOwXpjmsJ:www.bio.usyd.edu.au/Sword/News/assets/Wilson-TREE(2000).pdf lizards AND toxic AND "grasshoppers"&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=9

That's all for now!

I think much of the time, it's overfed chameleons just dying from complications due to being FAT.

Every chameleon I've seen that "just died," was overfed for a long time. Many people have everything right, and the chameleon looks really good (people think fat, beefy chameleons are healthier than thin and lean ones), and they just "die".

"They're "supposed" to live 8-12 years, but mine just died after 3."

I hear it all the time. Being fat simply cuts a reptile's life in half, and makes them more likley to die of some other complication.
too many people feed their chameleons 10 crickets a day, every day, and think it's fine.

I've been, lately, pushing this "overfeeding" thing, but i have good reason. I have recently been workig at several events and shows where I was able to speak to close to a hundred ex-chameleon owners, and so so many of them "just died" - and were in apparant good health.

Thing is, they all fed their chameleons as much as they'd eat, all the time.

I'm sure it happens. After all, insects get diseases and can have odd bacteria on their surfaces. Or, with something like a hornworm moth with large leg spines if the cham swallows it at just the wrong angle a spine could perforate something or get snagged. Years ago I gave 2 chams to a friend before moving, and they were fine for about a year. She trapped some night moths one day and 3 days later both chams were dead after showing severe neurological symptoms. Pesticide? Disease? We may never know. I'm sure it happens in the wild all the time too.

there are MANY reason's why they may "just drop dead" or show unusual (neurological) signs, it was just something that is little discussed. Being a "citizen entomologist" chemical defenses is often a favorite topic when a few of us buggy folks get together b/c it is one of the more fascinating aspects of the 6-legged world. If anyone of you are interested in a great read (and photos!) on the subject, Tom Eisner's (Cornell) book For Love of Insects is amazing.

Anyway, just thought it was something to keep in mind when there seems to be no immediate explanations. The keeper may find a little relief (albeit a lot of guilt) in knowing that the big really cool buge he/she fed it the night before was the culprit

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

That is a really good point. I think that there is a reason for seemingly healthy animals dying. Sometimes I think that maybe it is just something subtle that we miss but there is something there. I agree with you though, that they could possibly get something we are unaware of. I was wondering though, is it standard to look for that is an autopsy of the cham. Or can you even tell??

I was wondering though, is it standard to look for that is an autopsy of the cham. Or can you even tell??

Do you mean look for the toxicity of an insect? Probably not and I think there would be too many variables to figure it out. If the keeper KNEW he possibly ingested something toxic, then maybe but I think tissue/organ samples would have to be sent out (which can get very pricey) and I doubt most keepers would go for it - especially since they still may not know. I think the majority of keepers do not even have a necropsy done. I did on Luna (in office, not sent out) b/c I really needed to know what had happened to her.

If you are up for it (hey, you went looking at those pinworm images, didn't you??? ) here is a graphic article on chameleon necropsy. It is quite interesting because it shows where everything is internally and can give you a better understanding of the basic biology/physiology of Navi and Nigel

enjoy!

Necropsy Examination

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet