Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A week ago I took my adult bearded dragon to the vet for loss of appetite. At first I thought it was just due to my recent move, cos it coincided with that. But after a week I thought, no this is too long. (Typically this dragon is a bit of a loon anyway, so losing his appetite over a move is just like him). Checked his poop and his blood. He's got a bad coccidia infection, or had. His liver isn't liking it too much. Probably brought about by the stress of moving. (happy thing is I move again a week from saturday). NEway. Vet had me treat him with Flagryl (or something like that, it's 4am and I can't sleep, but I don't wanna go get the bottle and find the exact spelling). NEway, I am not getting any results in the appetite department. I am going to be calling the vet again this AM, but I wanted to know if anyone else has any ideas or thoughts that I could discuss with my vet.
This is his second time getting coccidia since I've had him. He'll be two in september and I really want him to stick around a good number of years longer. He's my baby boy. I don't know what to do beyond the vet. And I'm seriously terrified I'll lose him.

Also if anyone knows a good reptile vet in the Ames, IA area, please let me know.

Another thing quick... A year ago my vet found pin worms in my dragons. They were treated for it. On this visit he said they are still there in very low levels and said taht they'll always be there...

Now, I think this is kinda bull cos having worms shoudl never BE normal. What are your thoughts? (This is a brid vet who only kinda knows herps, but he's my only choice right now in South Dakota... which is why I am looking for a better vet in Ames, IA after my move. Thanks)

Yes I think this is bull to, a lot of people believe that you can’t get rid of worms and coccidia that total horse manure. These parasites have direct life cycles pin worms and coccidia an intense husbandry routine and the right medication should rid you of ALL parasites for good.

Things you MUST DO TO RID OF COCCIDIA NAD PIN WORMS
1) BASIC cage furniture plastic shoe boxes for basking sites and news paper floors I put plastic. For get about sand or any other particulate substrate, plastic and non porous anything

2) be a cage cleaning fanatic, every single day wipe and wash with 10% bleach solution every thing, replace the floor with fresh news paper

3) Worm with good MEDICAL wormers and maintain with parazap, wormers such as 100mg/ml panacure for pinworms and albon 5% for coccidia see your vet for dosages as I refuse to give dosages out on this board.

4) Quarantine ALL NEW animals in a separate room from you r reptile room for at least 6 weeks and neg fecals.

Some people think oh it’s ok for them to have small loads of pin worms and coccidia I say horse hockey just like you experienced you dragon gets stressed from a move levels build up to super infestation and now you have a sick dragon

The good thing about direct life cycle parasites is when they are gone from the animal and the environment they ARE GONE FOREVER! Unless you reintroduce them by bringing in another contaminated animal

Mat Price

Only problem is that the food items you feed have some parasites so can't get totally rid of the stuff.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

How do you keep them from rinjesting it if live food can contain parasites?
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Mystical Dragons

Exactly, that is why most dragons if tested and treated for having limited numbers of these parasites would always be on meds. Live foods contain parasites and your dragon gets them. Plain and simple. Even veggies can have them on their surface and some aren't washed away. The key is to know when a breakout is occuring and treat as neccesary. Reduce stress to prevent breakouts.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

It is my understand that Isospora amphiboluri the type of coccidia bearded dragons get is host specific so in other words the way I was taught is that that Isospora amphiboluri can not infect your dog or cat the same would be true of coccidia carried by crickets and feeders animals UNLESS they where infected by Isospora amphiboluri however worms are different story, that’s I why I recommend maintaining with parazap.

Also I am not certain that crickets and mealworms have the ability to carry such parasites I will ask my professors pathology and biology professors at school and try to get a definitive answer

Mat Price

UGH!!! All those BIG words..... my head hurts owwwwwwww LOL

>>It is my understand that Isospora amphiboluri the type of coccidia bearded dragons get is host specific so in other words the way I was taught is that that Isospora amphiboluri can not infect your dog or cat the same would be true of coccidia carried by crickets and feeders animals UNLESS they where infected by Isospora amphiboluri however worms are different story, that’s I why I recommend maintaining with parazap.
>>
>>Also I am not certain that crickets and mealworms have the ability to carry such parasites I will ask my professors pathology and biology professors at school and try to get a definitive answer
>>
>>Mat Price
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www.BeginnersBasics.com

I have been told that crickets definately do carry parasites. Coccidia, to my knowledge was a direct life cycle creature, meaning that it doesn't have to have a host animal just be introduced to the dragon. There are probably thousands of stains of it, maybe only a few infect dragons. But these are spread to dragons some way and often. Not all cases of coccidia are brought on from direct dragon contact, to my knowledge at least. Would like to know otherwise though if it is true.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

An interesting point here is if you take a human feces sample will it have Isospora amphiboluri coccidia present in it, from handling our dragons? There are certain forms of coccidia that can infect humans and be very dangerous IE, Cryptosporidium and Toxoplasma (which can cause birth defects in pregnant women)

I think this may be true, certain cells (coccidia or otherwise) need certain environments to survive, if a cell of coccidia is introduced into an environment in which one it becomes hyper/hypo tonic (takes in or pushes out to much water) or digestive enzymes are to strong the cell will lice (break open) and you won’t see coccidia on fecal examination under normal conditions. The question is does the form of coccidia that crickets carry (if they do carry coccidia at all which is probable since they can re infest a dragon after eating it’s feces but they would have to be infected in some manor as well with the strain they carry) is the coccidia 1) stable and will not lice 2) able to reproduce so that oocysts can be seen and 3) do they pose any risk to your dragon.

I stand by my statement that if you eliminate Isospora amphiboluri from the animal and the environment than you will never have a coccidia problem again unless the animal is re infested with Isospora amphiboluri strain of coccidia no matter how many other strains the animal is infested with.

Mat Price

Also if the parents are infected with Isospora amphiboluri so will the offspring this could explain the reason why you have seen dragons with coccidia that have “had no contact with the strain”

So it would be wise for all of Bubbles's and Suds's babies to be treated with ParaZap as well? Since they are not yet sick enough to warrant the stress of stronger meds, I wouldn't have to administer any presciption drugs, right?

Also - I called my vet on the Flagyl. He said he's had more success with it than Albon in the 20 years he's been practicing on reptiles. Plus he said that it doens't effect the kidneys as badly and since Suds is showing some liver problems that it wasn't wise to give him kidney problems as well.

yeah i would wait to administer prescrition meds to the babies till they are older as long as they are not looking ill eating good ect. i would say when they are about 6-8 weeks should be good but i would put them on parazap right away to keep thier load low

like i have siad before i don;t think parazap kills bugs it just really helps them help themsleves

Hey Matt, do you know of any good literature references on Isospora amphiboluri? I'd like to look into this further.

i think i read you where Pre Vet so i would suggest doing a google search on BD specific coccidia and get in good with the pathologist and biologist at your school. dpending on the level science classes you have had i could recomend some realy good books

mat

Could you please ask your professor for us? I'm really interested in this, and it would be really helpfull thing to know for all of us beardie owners. Really curious the most though about the coccidia that crickets can carry. If they do carry the same kind that affects our beardies. I keep one of my dragons in a complete quarentine state cause she was sick as a juvinile that could be spread through body to body contact with other beardies. So every since then I kept her seperate in a totally different room then my other dragons. She had coccidia as a juvi that I had rid her of as far as I'm aware I don't think she has it anymore as here test last time was clean. If she does her health is no longer being affected. Her weight is stable at just about 550 mostly in the 575 range and she did grow large almost 20 inches. If she does have it now the only way she could have gotten it is through her food. Every six months I take samples in and I just got three babies this past season that will need check ups as well. Would like to know for sure if the levels are low if I still should medicate, as my vet is a very good herp vet and tells me it's normal for them to carry some coccidia, will treat high amounts, but he will rid any worms even if there is one. He told me the food could be contaminated with it too.
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Mystical Dragons

I already use paper as floor and only use plastic "toys" for climbing as well as bleach for cleaning.

Fact is I don't think he's ever had be treat long enough to rid of coccidia or pinworms. I'm going to go to a new vet soon anyway when I go off to Veterinary school. If anyone will know anything it'll be them

I'm going to get some parazap too, but since I an moving in a week I've decided it'd be best to order it to arrive after I'm done with the move. Last thing I want is it getting lost in the confusion.

i have had BD in the past that where free of coccidia and when i say free i mean 0 cells in the fecal exam. i took a long sebatical from reptiles in general and have just got back into BD these guys of the 3 2 have coccidia present in feces and one does not. it took me about 6 weeks to get a complelty clear fecal exam.

i do my own fecals at home so i can do them quite often.

i am such a nerd i scare myself....

1) ULTRA hydration, soaking the dragon twice daily was essential. We've always used Albon as treatment, not Flagyl.

2) try www.parazap.com. I used the tea when the dragon would not eat, fed it with a dropper. There is much info here on the forum (do a search) as well as on the parazap website.

3) I also used Jackie's Gruel to get some food in the dragon. It's Hand Feeding Bird Formula, mixed with some Pedialyte & some babyfood peaches to make a thick liquid dripped on the dragons nose, they really lap it up. I add to some acidophilus powder to the gruel to help restore the normal flora of the gut that the antibiotics have disrupted. I offer this Gruel 2-3 times daily.

Hope this helps....it's not an easy recovery by any means.

I hope others will talk to you about cage cleaning, furniture cleaning, etc during the time of treatment.
I gotta run.
Good Luck!
Sharla

>>2) try www.parazap.com. I used the tea when the dragon would not eat, fed it with a dropper. There is much info here on the forum (do a search) as well as on the parazap website.
>>

I swear by that stuff!!!
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www.BeginnersBasics.com

I've never had to treat a dragon for coccidia thankfully, so I can't help you in that department. However, I didn't think that flagyl was for coccidia. I am pretty sure standard treatment is albon. Flagyl is antibacterial drug, so I don't think that would be all too useful on coccidia. I'm not entirely sure of all that, and some info came from quick net searches, but i'm sure someone here can give us further clarification on the matter.

Albon is what the Vets in our area use for coccidia.

Here's a cut & paste from a Vet website:
FLAGYL or Metronidazole is an antibiotic especially effective against anaerobic infections (infections that grow without the presence of oxygen.) In addition, it has anti-inflammatory properties in the large intestine and is a very effective anti-diarrhea medication. It is an effective antibiotic against certain protozoal infections, especially GIARDIA.

Here's a cut & paste about Albon from another Vet site:
The most commonly used drug to treat high levels of coccidia is a sulfa-type antibiotic called Albon (sulfadimethoxine). The top 3 recommended dosage/treatment regimes are as follows:

50mg/kg for 3 days on / 3 days off / 3 days on and then have a fecal exam.

50mg/kg for 5 days and then every other day until fecals are negative.

75mg/kg the first day and then 40mg/kg for the next 6 days.

You may want to gently double check with you Vet about his/her choice of treatments.
Good Luck!
Sharla

I actually got my info from a site on human medications, but I would just guess that if it's an antibacterial for one species, it'll be the same type of drug in another.

To a certain extent it is pretty natural for dragons to have a vast collection of different worms/microbials/protozoans in very small numbers. So having a few pinworms isn't abnormal, having a small amount of coccidia isn't that abnormal. Having large numbers is the problem. Large numbers grow when your dragon is stressed. It weakens the immune system and worms/protozoans population in the gut skyrocket. It doesn't take long to happen as they are single celled creatures that multiply rapidly. To the best of my knowledge Metronidizole (Flagly) is not useful against coccidia, it is helpful with bacteria and other protozoans. The best treatment for coccidia is a drug from the sulfa family of antibiotics, Albon being the one most widely used. Coccidia is a very hard infestation to treat especially if it has spread out of the intestines. Sanitary conditions are very important!!! No substrate besides paper products (paper towels, newspaper, rolls of paper), the reason being is that coccidia, as with all protozoans is what is known as a direct life cycle creature. Meaning if the dragon poops then licks the poop or sand the poop touched then the dragon reingests the coccidia and back to square one. This is why direct life cycle protozoans are such a pain. Also make sure there are NO crickets remaining in the cage they will eat any feces and reinfest your dragon. Sounds fun huh? Clean all feces as soon as possible, and clean anything it came in contact with. Also Albon can be rough on your dragons kidneys. For this reason hydration is very important. Someone recomended soaking, I don't like to soak because of the whole direct life cycle thing. Alot of dragons poop in water. Poop in water = higher risk of reinfestation. I tend to just administer the albon with water or pedialyte mixed in. If the dragon needs 0.5 cc of albon I draw 0.5 cc of albon into the syringe and then add another 2.5cc of pedialyte. This way the dragon is getting plenty of fluid with the albon. Albon also destroys the good gut flora (bacteria and other living organisms that aid in digestion). For this reason I admister Acidophiliz (petsmart) to the dragon during and after the treatment. Hope this helps you out. You can ask any further questions either here or feel free to email me.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

My dragon was treated the same way. With Flagyl and Panacur. He has roundworms I believe and coccidia. What was the vet you went to, Thera?(dragon still has them too, but he's doing much better. Was only a week since he got the treatments)

And also, is it safe to give parazap while he's getting Flagyl and Panacur?