Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering.I hear you guys talking about haveing a stool sample done.Has anyone here got out there microscope, a little dye, and some slides and ever tried to do a stool sample analysis.Is it possible or is it that complicated that for instance its to hard to recognize let say nematodes?A thought I had.Also, what are the HL's that are legal to own and available? thanks , scott.

Hi Scott,
I've never done the microscope thing with HL's, but I have done it when I kept discus (fish) and it was not difficult to identify parasites or their eggs. I'm sure it can be done.
Regarding legal HL's, it totally depends on the state you live in and the state you collect in. Each state has it's own reg's.
AZ for instance allows collection of five of it's six species with a hunting license.
Are you keeping any species currently?
Thanks
Mark
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www.phrynosoma.org

Sorry, just reread your other posts.
I guess you are not keeping any now.
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www.phrynosoma.org

Like I said a few years ago (35),I had one.It was an awsome pet for me.We did not know about the ant thing then.I really want to know what its about before I dive into this thing all the way.My 11 year old son is really interested, and I know it would be fun for us both.My daughter has a beared dr, and she even said it would be nice.Had a little fun with the wife the other day, told her I ordered two,actually there those pewter statues,she was like hmmm.I see there's a seller of ants on e-bay for HL's, from texas, might be someone here, and a better price also.What I meant by the legal ones, for instance which species were totally protected and which ones were actually legal to own, period.Thinking of putting together a terarium of sorts, 20"by 48" by 12" high, thanks for the comeback,scott.

Hi Scott, What state are you in, California you can keep two Desert Horn Lizards and two Short Horned Lizards, and you can buy the Texas Horned Lizards in some of the local pet stores, most of the ones I have around me are the Coastal Horned Lizsards witch are protected by State and Federal Law, the 20"x48"x12" would be a good size, all though I don't thing 12" would by deep enough for the lighting unless you you suspend the light over the tank. I had two DHL's in a 20gl. tank and they were to stressed in that small of a tank, I went to a 50 and now the are happy campers

Good luck
Cecil
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0.0.1 Bearded Dragon
1.1 Desert Iguana
1.0 Green Iguana
1.2 Collared Lizard
1.1 Desert Lepard Lizard
1.2 Desert Swift
2.1 Side Bloched Lizard
1.2 Desert Horned Lizard
1.1 Kids
0.1 Wife

12" high would be great for the lighting I thought, as they don't reach as far(UV), or am I wrong,seems like these lizards are not as much a climber as lets say a beared or iguana.From what I have seen of them, they are more at home on the tank bottom, for the most part.If the light was lets say 12" or 14" away from the bottom of the tank,it would be perfect for there UV needs.??.Do appreciate the forum here,and the comeback.thanks again.scott

you need to heat the whole tank, if it's that shallow it will be to hot at the spot with the heat source and to cool in the rest of the tank, my DHL'S climb up on there basking rock every morning and up and down through the day on cooler days to regulate the body temp. I use the Zoo-Med PowerSun 150watt witch gives you UVA/UVB and heat all in one for the basking spot and a Zoo-Med 150Watt basking light on the other side to balance the heat, that one is on a thermostat so the tank will not over heat on hot days. I used four inches of Homedepot Play sand, the sand needs to be deep enough so that the sand on the bottom stays cool and the lizards can dig down to it to cooloff if need be. This is the set up that has worked for me, the lights are also on a timer, that brings the basking light on first and then an hour later the heat light comes on.

Hope this helps
Cecil
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0.0.1 Bearded Dragon
1.1 Desert Iguana
1.0 Green Iguana
1.2 Collared Lizard
1.1 Desert Lepard Lizard
1.2 Desert Swift
2.1 Side Bloched Lizard
1.2 Desert Horned Lizard
0.1 Hamster
1.1 Kids
0.1 Wife

The PowerSun is 160Watt not 150
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0.0.1 Bearded Dragon
1.1 Desert Iguana
1.0 Green Iguana
1.2 Collared Lizard
1.1 Desert Lepard Lizard
1.2 Desert Swift
2.1 Side Bloched Lizard
1.2 Desert Horned Lizard
0.1 Hamster
1.1 Kids
0.1 Wife

Looking for parasites is not that difficult if you are looking for nematodes.
Looking for coccidia and other protazoa is difficult.

You need fecal flotation, such as fecasol or better, microscope, slides, cover slips, fecal analyzers or pill containers, and books on how to do it.
You also need fenbendazole suspension (the paste sucks hard-use it for what it is meant for-horses).

You need books to i.d. what you are looking for.

Better to deal with the vet, but with much research and help from a vet it is not impossible to deal with nematodes.

Sherbrooke has a book on Phrynosoma-recent in fact.

In this is shown the nematode that exists in native ants and horned lizards. The nematode cycles between the two animals.

Horned lizards defecate the nematode filled with eggs or eggs in their feces. Ants carry the nematode egg filled carcass or feces back to their nest. The nemtode eggs are ingested by the ants. The nematode (larvae?) then bursts forth from ants ingested by the horned lizard and completes the cycle.
This is probably an indirect life cycle parasite but I am not certain.

Good book to check out.

I would think that horned lizards will pop up with this nematode regularly due to their ant diet, unless one was to start their own ant colony and deem it parasite free.

In my area I am looking at Coast horned lizards and their diminishing habitat. They are confined to four patch populations and are encircled by argentine ants, which they do not eat.
The argies are pushing in on native ants, and outcompete them.

The fifth population is extinct.

This area is the UC reserve located on the old Fort Ord army base in the Monterey bay.

The extinct coast horned lizard population was located next to Moss landing. Perhaps one or two remain, but for all intensive purposes they are extinct.

Wherever there is moisture, there are argies.

I have witnessed argies attacking a native ant nest.

The horned lizards on the reserve are eating mostly carpenter ants, as these are the most plentiful for what I observed.

Hi Cecil,
It seems from what you are saying that your tank might be a bit too hot. If your HL's have to burrow to escape the heat it is. The cool side of the tank should be 80 to 85, with the hot side about 105. This should be enough of a gradient for them to regulate without digging down, although they will dig down for a nap usually during the day. The thing with a small tank is that it's hard to acheive and maintain this heat gradient. Also, the confined quarters tend to stress the lizards.
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www.phrynosoma.com

Hi Mark, do you think a 60gl. tank is to small for three DHL's and three Desert Swift Lizards? I have the heat source cycle on a thermostat off at 90 on at 85 should that be lowered, it sounds like that is a bit to high, in the mid-day they will burrow down and only there head will stick out of the sand. I was told to do the four inches of sand when I set my tank up about four years a go to give them a place to hide and to cool off, I stated with a 20 long and the lizards were to stressed went to a 50 and they were fine in that tank, I added some Desert Swift Lizards and moved them all to a 60gl. I set the stat down to off at 85 and on at 80.

Thanks for the heads up
Cecil
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0.0.1 Bearded Dragon
1.1 Desert Iguana
1.0 Green Iguana
1.2 Collared Lizard
1.1 Desert Lepard Lizard
1.2 Desert Swift
2.1 Side Bloched Lizard
1.2 Desert Horned Lizard
0.1 Hamster
1.1 Kids
0.1 Wife

I know you had asked Mark, but I happened to see your post... I was told 20 gallon for 1 DHL, 40 for 2, 60 for 3, etc... With your other lizards in there that enclosure sounds too small. In addition, I am thinking it might not be good to keep your other lizards with the DHLs, but I am not positive. It may stress them out. And trust me, once they are stressed it can be tough to bring them back. Either way, temp on the hot side should be 105 and cool should be 80-85. I know this for a fact, I have struggled with temps in my enclosure for my DHL. The 105/80 is the best combo.

Also, get a cave if you don't have one. They are great for basking and also provide a cool as well as stress free space for your DHL.

Yes, in the case of mature nematodes ( roundworms ) they can be seen in the scat ( feces ) or nearby after the HL defecates. But lack of seeing them does not prove your lizard does not have them. I usually see them a few days after treating my HL for parasites and they come out dead.

I dose now routinely for parasites with liquid Panacur ( Fenbendazole or Safe-Guard ) from a feed store or vet, just before, after, and around mid summer as a preventative measure. It's oral medication, and I have to carefully open the jaws and insert a small 1cc syringe ( without needle )to administer what amounts to a small drop. A little trouble, but it's safer than the injectable medications.

Mike
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246