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Lavenders from "Sulphur blood"

ZFelicien May 20, 2006 08:32 PM

I call um "2nd grade lavenders"
They started out pretty regular looking with exception to the canary yellow bands but they start showing intense color as yearlings. Where as the sulphur lavenders (from sulphur X sulphur) hatch out with a good bit of color! "good things come to those who wait"

here's the sire to my "2nd grade" sulphur lavender pair,

my `04 male

& `05 female

i'll be breeding this pair next season, hope to get some colorful hatchlings...

Thanx for looking

~ZF

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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

Replies (14)

ChristopherD May 21, 2006 08:22 AM

I believe the sulpher trait is co-dominant so you should get sulphers in that 1st gen sulpher x "canary" Lav pairing .Does anyone know if the normal sibs will be het to a Co-Dom Trait?And question #2 the co-dom "Pastel"trait in Ball Pythons produces.
PASTEL X NORMAL=1/2 PASTEL 1/2 NORMAL
PASTEL X PASTEL=1/2 PASTEL 1/2 SUPER PASTEL
SUPER X PASTEL= SUPERS PASTELS
SUPER X NORMAL= ALL PASTELS
SUPER X SUPER = ALL SUPERS
Sorry for the Ball Python term.That is the only co-dom trait that came to mind.again can a co-dom trait have hets?Chris

Horridus May 21, 2006 10:41 AM

There might be another co-dominant mutation in florida kings, the "peanut butter". This should be proved or disproved with this years hatchlings.

If Sulpher is a co-dom, there is no such thing as hets....something would have to be visible in the "hets" sometimes this is something very obvious (mojave balls) or sometimes they are difficult to differentiate from normals (Yellowbelly balls ot "het ivory" balls)

The question would be is the sulpher brooks the "super" manifestation of the mutation or is there a yet unseen form, and the sulphers are in themselves the hets....I don't have any of the sulphers so I don't have any firsthand knowledge of them, but I am working with the PBs and a co-dom mutation in ratsnakes called "Rusty" in which the super form exhibits itself as a luecistic animal.

It should be obvious with any sulpher to normal breeding, if sulphers are produced...then it must be an either dominant (spider balls, hypo boa) trait or a co-dom (mojave, yellowbelly)..It amazes me with all the years of breeding guttata & lampropeltis that there aren't more co-dom mutations out there....there have been close to a dozen or more show up in the ball pythons in recent years but the only Corns I know of are the Ultras....and in kings, the Checkerboard Holbrooki & possibly the Peanut Butters & perhaps Sulphers

Great things are on the horizon with brooks mutations
By the way Z, those animals are knockouts.

Horridus@aol.com

Brandon Osborne May 21, 2006 01:34 PM

I believe we're fishing here. IMHO, they are not co-dom, but are just a nice yellow brooksi. Again this is just my opinion.

Brandon Osborne

daveb May 21, 2006 05:09 PM

hey brandon,
did you keep your sulfurs or end up selling them?

daveb

ChristopherD May 22, 2006 07:40 AM

this is getting confusing ? its gotta be genetic somehow? the selectivly bred amel yellow corns "butters" =amel/caramel which i believe both are simple reccessive. I guess Caramel is the yellow color trait. NEVER MIND !!! Close. This is getting stupid,not confusing,thanks again for chiming in,Chris
Wheuuuuu!!!!!!!

Brandon Osborne May 22, 2006 04:12 PM

Chris, you're right. Butter corns are genetic....but we're talking kings that were line bred for 10-15 years to enhance yellow. These, IMHO, are not genetic in the simple recessive or co-dom sense. They are genetic in the sense that the yellow traits are inherited........like tall skinny, short and round, or medium and stocky. People are coming up with answers they know nothing about. lol. And I agree with you......lots of things are stupid.

Brandon Osborne

Keith Hillson May 23, 2006 08:35 AM

I totally agree with Brandon. I think people see the results of others line breeding and selective breedings and think they look so much nicer or different they must be a seperate/new mutation. The problem is Brooksi are so variable in that you will get a clutch of super colored babies but also some very average bland looking ones in the same clutch. I dont see why even some of the most seasoned breeders see their morphs produce extra nice babies and they assume that its a new double mutation or a co-dominant thing ??? I remember the days when if you thought you may have sumthin' new you keep yer mouth shut until you prove it out. Otherwise you get a bunch of naive not so seasoned King guys buying these Kings at inflated prices for maybe nothing but a nice example of the original mutation. Live and learn I guess.

Keith
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Horridus May 23, 2006 09:07 AM

You are 100% correct Keith, Forums like this should never be used to discuss theories or possibilities. If you will note above, no one ever said Sulphur Brooks were anything but a line bred appearance...I made mention that there might be co-dominant mutation in brooks but I guess I should make sure that I don't say anything like that lest someone go out and blow a bunch of money on that chance. I have already pointed out the many results that point to a co-dominant inheritence in PB brooks and thought since ChristopherD thought that Sulphers could be co-dominant, he might like to know about the other mutation in brooks kings that most likely will prove out to be so....I guess I should not have been so vauge when I said "I don't have any sulphers, so I don't have firsthand knowledge of them". That could obviously lead someone to believe I had the answers.
I guess since I don't have sulpher brooks I don't have any business posting anything about co-dominant traits since I obviously don't know what I'm talking about

Keith Hillson May 23, 2006 09:26 AM

Geez Bart I wasnt talking about you. I find your posts very informative and dead on...most of the time. There have been instances of people posting pics of their "new muations" with new catchy names and everything that directly correlated to classified sales. If you believe otherwise then you have yer head in the sand.

Keith
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Horridus May 23, 2006 09:45 AM

My mistake then Keith...just seemed to be aimed at this post.
Of course there are always going to be some out there that use slight variation to make a NEW & IMPROVED mutation...

Maybe it's niave of me but I remember when breeders and hobbyists were alot more forthcoming with information...and getting ideas out there for others to comment on was commonplace...now it seems that (and granted alot of this is Ball Python related) people want to keep secrets...some will go as far as to lie and purposefully decieve others to keep them from producing something. I guess maybe if I had multi thousands riding on some project I might feel differently. But sometimes getting info out there can help everyone....for example I KNOW for a fact there are people here who have produced the sulphers and excepting Brandon no one spoke up to help this guy out with his thoughts regarding it's genetic makeup....

Horridus

Keith Hillson May 23, 2006 10:18 AM

Well my point was not too keep it a secret so much as prove it out before selling hets and or marketing it. There are still many impressionable newbs out there and they dont know any better. One bad experience will shake a newbie out of this hobby and nobody wants that.

Keith
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xelda May 21, 2006 03:34 PM

Hets do exist in codom traits. That is a fact. What sets them apart is that the hets express the codom gene to a lesser degree than the homos. The homos are the super form, and the hets are the regular form.

The term het gets overused so breeders seem to associate it with "not showing the trait" or whatever, but that's only for recessive genes.

Regarding the sulfur morph, I figure it's a line bred trait just like the flames. Now in line bred traits, there are no hets. The color will pass onto the offspring to some extent no matter what the pairing is. In order to breed for more intense color, you need to work with a smaller gene pool and select the best colored animals to produce better colored animals.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

Horridus May 21, 2006 04:56 PM

Bugchick,

You are of course correct in strictest sense but I think his question was obviously are there any hets in the classic (herp breeding) sense of the word regarding recessive traits (i.e. showing no visible difference) and I don't believe that co-dom hets exhibit something "to a lesser degree" that's the case with Tiger Retics striping & Pastel Ball Pythons but is I don't think a Het Ivory is a lesser degree of a white snake...or a "black pastel" is to a lesser degree a patternless black snake..unless by to a lesser degree you mean the genetic conditions casing the change of appearance. Referring to the mutation expressing itself in an animal as a het tends to confuse most people...and i'm sure it is a result of breeders using the term incorrectly

Horridus

xelda May 21, 2006 11:21 PM

Using the term "het" correctly isn't adhering to any strict sense of the word. It's just basic genetic principle. I think it's great that so many reptile breeders are applying their understanding of genetics to reptile breeding, but it's just plain annoying if they perpetuate the misuse of fundamental terminology.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

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