Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's the uro that never grew.
He's good friends with his cage mates, a couple collards a chuck and a few leopards.
Since moving to the big cage he is doing a lot better, basking every day and eating more than ever before.
Hopefully he will grow up yet.

i am not yelling at you or anything but it really isn't that great to keep the uro in with the chuck and the collareds, not sure about the leopard, i don't know much about them, however i think i read once since the one is nocturnal and the others were daytime animals they might interrupt each other's sleep (if i am thinking of the right leopard)

anyway, collareds have softer skin than uros and not much protection if he decides to use his tail on them. the same goes with the chuck, although he is a bit bigger. plus collareds need bugs in large amounts that the uro doesn't need so the uro might be eating more animal protein than it needs which can damage its kidneys. also they are from different continents, what might not bother one animal, could make the others sick. i see you have different basking spots available but collards definitely don't need the same temps as uros.

just thought i would let you know some of the potential problems that you might encounter with them all living together.
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vonnie
***The first law of dietetics seems to be: if it tastes good, it's bad for you. — Issac Asimov ***

Thanks for the advice, but I have heard it all before.
As far as your concerns:
First off the different basking spots do have different temps: 130, 100, 90, but all of the lizards use each of the basking spots thoughout the day so this is definetly not a problem. Also the cage provides a large heat gradient so there is no problems with the temps.
Next the uro does not seem very interested in eating any crickets, only a few meal worms here and there but he eats his salads and veggies fine. The collareds eat up all of the crickets offered so fast that there would be none for the uro neway. Everyone gets waht they need to eat I can assure you.
Also as far as the disturbing sleep is an issue that I have not thought much about so thanks. However, the leopard geckos are indeed nocturnal, but because of the rock setup that I have at the base of the cage they are able to seperate themselves from the day active lizards. They tend to spend the whole day within these caverns and nooks and crannies and as none of the other lizards explore this area I don't think there is a problem with sleep. Also as far as at night, the day active lizards almost exclusively sleep up on top of the rock structures, on to which the leopards donot climb so they do not disturb them at night.
As far as the tail whips and other signs of aggression, that is still up in the air. However the setup has been in place for several months now and there has still yet to be the slightest incident of aggression noted between any of the animals. Other than an aggressive feeding response that the collareds occasionally may take out on each other when crickets are dropped in, everyone gets along fine. In fact especially between the uro and the chuck there seems to be a bond, this is not something Im just making up as all my family who knows nothing about lizards tell me that they see them prefering each others company. Strange as it may seem they cohabitate better than I anticipated, and at any signs of a problem they will be seperated immediately. Thanks for the concerns and believe me wehn I say I am not a careless keeper.
Take care and I'll post more in the future to update
Erik

”Here's the uro that never grew

Most of the time this points to husbandry issues.

” Thanks for the advice, but I have heard it all before”

Yes, from many people who have had direct experience with mixing species and yet you have decided to ignore their advice.

”He's good friends with his cage mates

Good friends? Did they tell you this or is it hearsay? Lol

It amazes me how someone can refer to a uromastyx and chuckwalla being ‘good friends’ because the uromastyx basks on the back of the chuck and cradles up to it when they sleep. Maybe I need a pair of rose-colored glasses as when I hear this scenario- I see competition for basking space and warmth.

”Also the cage provides a large heat gradient so there is no problems with the temps.

No problem for you. Although three out of the four species you are keeping together prefer higher temperatures, the gradient proportion is not the same for all of these species. If the enclosure were tailored to the specific needs of a uromastyx, the collards would probably not do well (definitely not the leopard geckos) in the overall high gradient most of us use for our uros. Chances are, you did things half a$$ by setting things up with temperatures that would work for all but are not ideal for any. This sort of environment fits your needs better than the animals. I see positive benefits for only one living being in this situation- you. You have the maintenance of one enclosure instead of several and get to watch your experiment unfold while running back here to post about it to people who do not agree with it. The animals get to live in a generic environment set up to house multiple animals rather than one tailored to their specific needs. They have the stress of living in close proximity to other animals that they would not be cohabitating with in nature, and they get to do it in a small artificial setting with half a$$ generic conditions. Does not sound like a win-win situation to me.

”Next the uro does not seem very interested in eating any crickets, only a few meal worms here and there but he eats his salads and veggies fine.

And if the uromastyx did seem interested, would that have made a difference to you? My guess is no.

"Also as far as the disturbing sleep is an issue that I have not thought much about so thanks. However......
I don't think there is a problem with sleep......they do not disturb them at night."

Do you realize that you have a however for almost everything? Unless you are able to observe this enclosure throughout the day and night, I doubt if you have a clue whether or not sleep patterns are being disturbed. Even if you did watch the enclosure, you cannot say with certainty that the noise and movement throughout the enclosure does not disturb the resting animals- you are guessing and the pattern you have established with your ‘guesses’ tends to always side in your favor- not the animals in your care. My guess (I get them too) is that it does disturb the sleep pattern of the other animals.

”As far as the tail whips and other signs of aggression, that is still up in the air.”

Well, by the time you have your answer, you might also have an inured or dead animal. But, I guess that is the risk ‘you’ are willing to take. (too bad the animals in your care do not have the same choice)

However the setup has been in place for several months now and there has still yet to be the slightest incident of aggression noted between any of the animals.

Remember the numerous stories shared by people on this forum and other forums with similar setups that resulted in catastrophe months even years down the road? I would be willing to bet that they did not see too much aggression with their combination of animals prior to lifting the dead body out of the enclosure to dispose of it. For every horror story shared on this forum, there are probably a few dozen more we do NOT hear about as not too many people are willing to admit to these things in a public setting. If you are employed or a student, my guess is that that you probably directly observe the interaction (intent observation for the purpose of monitoring behavior patterns) between the animals in this enclosure less than 5% of the time (generous figure for most) Try to keep this in mind when you type about the slightest bit of aggression. Also keep in mind that aggression often does always surface in the form of apparent physical aggression between two animals. Those that have the desire to ‘make something happen’ are the first to brush aside these subtle clues and refer to the behavior as the animals sharing in ‘antics’, bonding, or being friends.

”Strange as it may seem they cohabitate better than I anticipated, and at any signs of a problem they will be seperated immediately”

Better than you expected but you placed them together anticipating issues? Why does this statement not surprise me?

Just keep in mind that immediately might be too late for the animal. Then again, that is a risk ‘you’ are willing to take isn’t it?
I am curious, if catastrophe results 18 months into this little experiment, will you still chalk it up as a success because it lasted so long or because multiple animals did not die in this period? (rhetorical question)

Just a suggestion, rather than wait for obvious visual signs of aggression- when your leopard geckos start to disappear, you might want to remove the remaining geckos or the collards.

" fact especially between the uro and the chuck there seems to be a bond, this is not something Im just making up as all my family who knows nothing about lizards tell me that they see them prefering each others company."

So now we have your opinion and the opinion of people who you admit know nothing about lizards. I feel much better.

” and believe me wehn I say I am not a careless keeper”

Not a chance of me believing. You can convince yourself, but your actions prove otherwise to many people on this forum.

In another forum you refer to the fact that there is 'often' at least one collard sitting on the head of the chuck, the uromastyx and are chuck always under the same lamp with the uro often basking on top of the chuck (again, I see competition for proper basking space), the uro being ”pesty” but the chuck ignoring it, the uromastyx is getting used to the collards jumping on it’s head all of the time, and the collard and uro are always trying to get the chuck to join in on their antics. You call this successful cohabitation and responsible husbandry? I call this a very stressful environment for all of the animals forced to live in this enclosure together.

Take care and I'll post more in the future to update

I wonder how much you will share when something goes wrong or an animal becomes sick or injured from this environment? I have a feeling the health issue will be blamed on something other than stress from the environment and injury issues will be quietly swept under the rug. This is usually how it goes with these experiments.

Correction:

"Try to keep this in mind when you type about the slightest bit of aggression. Also keep in mind that aggression often does NOT always surface in the form of apparent physical aggression between two animals."

I don't think any of the post are meant to be mean, but a lot of your points go directly against anything and everything that has ever been establised regarding uromastyx husbandry. I really, really, REALLY hope that you'll reconsider taking some pointers from some of the more established members on the forum.

JR
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BRUCELIZARD.COM Curious? Thought So.

Once again thanks for the healthy discussion lol.
All you are doing is turning everything I say against me to make me look like a bad person. You talk about me saying "howevers" to different points that I make and this is because I can admit that I am not a genius and I can see two different sides to one topic.
You on the other hand can only see one side and it limits your options because you can't except something that you do not believe in.
When I say that all the cage mates are healthy and active it is not something I'm making up so I don't really care if you say they are having health problems.
For example you make up stuff like they are having competitin over basking spots. How can you know this, you've never watched the setup. You assume too much because you feel that waht you think will happen must be the case.
I will admit a possible husbandy flaw on my part with the uromastic, as he indeed has not grown very much in 4 years, but I was 12 when I got it and I have learned so much more since then. Now all of my animals get the proper care, especially since I have slimmed down the collection alot.
I don't really have much to say since my last post as I feel I made the situation perfectly clear, but if you want to assume such things as basking competition and eating problems there is no way I can prove otherwise so why try. And the uro never ate crickets even when housed alone.
Now, the uro and the chuck both lived in 4 by 2 foot cages. Neither came out to bask every single day and neither had the same kind of energy or apetite that they have now. This is not to say that they wer living in poor conditions, rather I believe that a four foot cage is just not big enuf. Today however both are much more active and healthy. There is much more room to move about and climb and they cage is very far from crowded.
The chance that there will suddenly develop a problem overnight and I will find a dead lizard with everyone near the same size is highly unlikely. However, I do not put it as impossible that there may not develop a problem that could even turn physical, and this is because I do not know everything. At the same time you must accept that because you do not know everything there is a chance that they can live together successfully.
The evidence I have is compelling : everyone healthier and more active than when housed apart in adequate but small in comparisson enclosures.
Please do not turn this into a never ending argument because I feel we have both expressed ourselves as best we can and I dont think either of us will change our opinions based on what another says, rather we may further cement our standing in stubborness.
As far as the other post: I know I do not know much compared to some people on this forum, but I know what I see. I dont think we should put it out of the question that the uro gurus if you will could possibly be wrong on some points. How else will we all learn.
Take care,
Erik

n/p

I'm 17, sorry math is not best subject,
but I;m not sure y u seem so confused lol?

What did you make the "rocks" in your enclosure out of? I like the setup and am planning on building a new one myself.

Oh wow you posted while I was lol.
Any way I'm glad someone can see some good in the setup.
Yes the rocks I am proud of however they took sooooo much time to make I don't know if I would recomend it.
If you are very motivated they are quite simple.
First I set up a couple of 2 by 4s that I just nailed into the bottome of the cage about 1.5 feet outside of the back or side walls that were about 2 feet high. This was to provide more support for the sections that extended out into space the most.
However this is not necessary if you don't have sections extending more than 1.5 feet out.
Next I bought I good deal of chicken wire with about 2 inch holes in it that was extremely flexible. It is really easy to make whatever kind of figures you want with this stuff by cutting it into 4 by 4 foot sections or so and then bending them however you want and using a staple gun to attach them to the wall, floor, or the 2 by 4s if you have them.
Once the whole wall is designed with these I bought screen that you would put in a screen door, and it must have very small holes. This also is pretty easy to work with. I covered all of the chicken wire with these becuase in the next step the mortar sticks well to the screen but will fall thru the holes in the chicken wire. To get the screen to conform to all of the chicken wires creations is very tedious, and I used hundreds of zipp ties and staples to get it to work.
Once that fnally is over you can use mortar or probably concrete, I used mortar to cover everthing. This is also very tedious especially on the upside down parts but if you stick to it it will work out in the end.
I may be doing another cage like this for the monitor and I will post step by step pictures for the process which will make it more clear.
Hope this helps.
_erik

I do not have years of experience but I do know it seems that the animals you have would each require different husbandries. That is my concern that perhaps humidity or temperature levels that vary so much between different animals would be impossible to meet in that environment. Otherwise, the set-up itself is interesting but I think it would be in your animals best interst if you seperated them...JMO

Teenagers, they just know EVERYTHING.....

Having said my quick remark, I gotta say you're several light years ahead of most of your peer group (& some older ones as well), not only in articulation & grace under fire but, in your sincere interest in herping. Not to say I support your mixing of species (their can be pathogenic cross-overs that you may not be considering) but, how can we fault you so severely when the majority of people couldn't care less about reptiles & other wildlife.
One question... That's a gorgeous set-up but, isn't it a pain to clean??
Best of luck.