Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello Everyone,

I would love to get some advice from you on what you may think is the best solution for my Carpet Chameleons eye problem. I took him the the vet 2 days ago, but I have another appointment of this upcoming Friday. The vet knew quite a bit about chameleons, but Im sure he would like some expierienced keepers advice.

My cham's eyes are bulging out alot, but over the last 2 days, it has gotten better. The 3 problems the vet thinks it is is either:

1.) An eye infection, which the vet gave me an antibiotic ointment, and it seems to be helping.

2.) A blocked nassal passage, although when the vet opened the cham's mouth, he said everything looked good.

3.) A lack of Vitamin A, in which I am to supplement the cham's food with Nekton Rep.

His eyes have been moving a lot lately, and he is very active and alert. He weighs 25 grams at 5 months, which is a normal size for a juvi carpet.

Does anyone have any tips that I can tell the vet. Has anyone ever expierienced this problem? What would YOU all recommend. I printed out the article lele linked for me (thanks lele!!), and I will show this to the vet. I am going to research this as much as possible before Friday. The vet said that they can do surgery if they feel it is neccassary.

Thanks for listening, I appreciate anyones advice,

Greg
-----
1.1 Carpet Chameleons (Furcifer Lateralis Lateralis) - (12/05 & 01/06)
1.0 Ghost Phase Leopard Gecko - (12/15/02)
0.1 High Yellow Leopard Gecko - (06/17/02)
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko - (4/14/04)

Nobody's ever been able to give me a good reason for this. I've seen it mostly in jacksonii, and it is almost certainly a vitamin imbalance.

Were you giving it ANY vitamin A beforehand?

In the past, people were so worried abotu overdosing vitamin A, they started having problems with too little vitamin A.

That could very well be the underlying cause. go EASY on the nekton rep - Very easy. It's extremely high in vitamin A, and if you use to much, it is going to cause problems.

Yes, he was receiving Nekton Rap before this, but not very often. Ive been told to use it once every other week. Is there something I can use with a safer amount of Vitamin A??

Thanks for responding, I am going to relay all of the info to the vet.

Greg
-----
1.1 Carpet Chameleons (Furcifer Lateralis Lateralis) - (12/05 & 01/06)
1.0 Ghost Phase Leopard Gecko - (12/15/02)
0.1 High Yellow Leopard Gecko - (06/17/02)
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko - (4/14/04)

The trouble is, eye problems result from an imbalance of vitamin A, so it could be too much OR too little.

how much nekton rep was he getting? How many dusted insects, how many times per week? Were they lightly or heavily dusted?

Nekton Rep has a tremendous amount of pure vitamin A (unless they've changed the formula recently). If he was getting it with any regularity, he was very likely recieving a toxic amount.

Vitamin A is stored in the liver, and when the "storage space" is used up (only one good dose is needed to do that), the excess amount can cause problems. Talk to your vet concerning vitamin A toxicity, and mention the levels of A in nektopn rep.

I've seen chameleons overedose on multivitamins with a tenth the amount of vitamin A that nekton rep has.

Eric, thanks for the help.

I would guess he is getting too little. I only gave it too him once every third week, and I would say between 4-6 crickets, lightly dusted. he probally did'nt even eat all of them, maybe 2-3 out of the 4-6. Anyways, is there something I can use instead of Nekton?? Something with a smaller amount of Vitamin A. I have been dusting his food with Calcium every other feeding, and once a week with Mutil Vitamin D3. I have always used the Nekton in small doses, but the vet said to just dust with the Nekton for 10-14 days. I am also using the ointment on his eyes.

What would you personally be doing with a chameleon with this problem?? I have researched most common health problems, but there is not any information on a chameleon with extremely bulging eyes. Ill try to get a good picture of the problem when i get home.

Thanks Again,

Greg
-----
1.1 Carpet Chameleons (Furcifer Lateralis Lateralis) - (12/05 & 01/06)
1.0 Ghost Phase Leopard Gecko - (12/15/02)
0.1 High Yellow Leopard Gecko - (06/17/02)
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko - (4/14/04)

The only chameleon I had that had this porblem was a WC female
deremensis, an dshe got it shortly after I aquired her. She was in the
vendor's "care" for several months, and was severly dehydrated and
kinda lightweight when I got her. Her eye swelled up about 5X normal
size, an dthen she died - I couldn't do anything for her.

I've seen tons of jacksonii suffer from this, and they were all being given
too much vitamin A, and not enough D3.

With the concnetration of A in nekton rep, the amount you gave
appears to be too much. I use reptivite, which has about 10X less A
than nekton, and I only (very)lightly dust one insect, every week or so.
Basically, the amount of vitamin powder given is very very tiny - I dust
so little. I try to spread out my supplementation as much as possible -
the equivilant of a dusted adult cricket, but spread out over several
feedings, to limit the possibility of overdosing.

I cannot be sure if it's overdosed or not, but I would think that may be
the case. I use herptivite as a general multivitamin, but reptivite as a
source for vitamin A - and I use them both in small amounts.

If you had been supplementing with Nekton Rep as you say you were,
I cannot imagine how it could have been recieving too little. check out
the ingredients, and see how much vitamin A is in it - it's astronomical.

I'd use herptivite, and only a tiny tiny amount of nekton, every once in a
while (monthly), to ensure proper amounts of vitamin A. for now, I'd
wager he's gotten too much vitamin A - consult your vet, and see if he
still thinks the chameleon was recieving to little.

I am going to stop by there tomorrow with some of this information I received. I am going to get some retivite, and cut out the nekton. I will stick with the ointment though, because it has been helping. Would you rule out an infection though?? He still has very good movement, and he is very aware of his surroundings.

Thanks for the help!!!

Greg
-----
1.1 Carpet Chameleons (Furcifer Lateralis Lateralis) - (12/05 & 01/06)
1.0 Ghost Phase Leopard Gecko - (12/15/02)
0.1 High Yellow Leopard Gecko - (06/17/02)
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko - (4/14/04)

of course - an eye problem due to a vitamin imbalance can amke the eye more vulnerable ot infection. The swelling might be a result of an infection that was made possible by the vitamin A problem - that's how crazy all this is!

I was just going to reply to your thread lower down on the page (and move it up) when I realized that it was already moved up. Got a bit behind over the weekend with reading the forums.

Disclaimer....as always...I'm not a vet and I am only telling you things that I have seen/read about/heard of, etc. I hope that your vet can solve the problem for you. I feel for your poor chameleon...and for the worry that you are going through.

I have not seen many cases of swollen eyes....and only one that I can recall that remains unexplained.

One case was due to cancer. (The swelling was caused by cancer.)

In one case (WC dwarf jacksons) both eyes were swollen. I took her to the vet's and they tried to take fluid from the eyes, but none came out. They tested for bacteria and none turned up....so they did nothing. She died a few days later. An autopsy was done. Its stored away at the moment and I can't get to it....but I don't remember anything significant being in it to do with the eyes.

Another one (Meller's) came to me with an infection in the sinus area. They eyes were NOT swollen...there was a big bump below the eye. I took him to the vet's and surgery was done to clean out the sinus area. Because the infection went so close to the eye, the eye was swollen huge by late that same day. All this to say that something in the sinus area could cause the eye to swell...but I would expect it only to be on ONE eye.

Here's a site that talks about swollen/bulging eyes....
http://www.anapsid.org/eyebulge.html
Swollen/Distended Eyeball.
"In all reptiles, bilateral or unilateral swelling may be associated with an infection inside the eye itself, or behind the eye in or behind the socket; left untreated, it can lead to retinal detachment, blindness or enucleation (removal of the eyeball). Or, it may due to an increase in intraocular pressure, often a sign of infection, injury or some other health problem; left untreated, it can lead to retinal detachment and blindness. Since the cause cannot be determined by the herp keeper, nor are appropriate treatments available over-the-counter, these reptiles need to be seen by a reptile vet."

Here's one, but the eyes here contained blood in the swellings...however, the vet (Margaret a. Wissman, D.V.M. Diplomate, A.B.V.P.) does talk about swollen eyes being caused by a vitamin A deficiency...
http://www.animalnetwork.com/reptiles/detail.aspx?aid=25769&cid=3977&search=
contact information...
http://www.toolady.com/vetrefer/states/florida.htm

Now..for the vitamin A story....
Vitamin A can be preformed or from a beta carotene source. It is said that beta carotene can not be overdosed because it is changed into vitamin A in the body and only enough of it is changed for what is needed. Preformed can be overdosed since its already in a form that the body can use and any excess is stored in the body (liver, I believe) of the chameleon. Now then, just to make it as clear as mud...there is some question as to whether chameleons need preformed vitamin A.

Here is a site that talks about Hypovitaminosis A (too little), etc....
http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/
Scan down to hypofitaminosis A and read from there...

In turtles, too little vitamin A usually results in swollen eyes.
Here's a site about that...
http://www.anapsid.org/eyebulge.html
Hypovitaminosis A
"This is a disorder that primarily affects chelonians, specifically aquatic species. Fortunately, as proper diet and care information becomes more widespread, the incidence of hypovitaminosis A (deficiency in vitamin A) has decreased. However, hypovitaminosis A has become so associated with swollen eyes that too often turtle keepers (and some vets) just assume that swollen eye = A deficiency and promptly shove vitamin A into the reptile without doing anything to investigate the cause of the swelling. Since the health problems associated with hypervitaminosis A (overdose of vitamin A) are as bad in their own way as too little vitamin A, the poor turtle's pain and health problems are just made worse.

Early on, there is some swelling of the eyelid, some mild welling around the iris, and some tearing of the eye in cases of hypovitaminosis A. In addition, there are changes in the orbital glands. As the condition progresses untreated, the swellings become more pronounced and the conjunctiva becomes visible, swollen and reddened. Reptiles that depend upon sight to feed can no longer see well enough to feed, and so slow starvation sets in, further weakening the reptile.

Along with the necessary correction of the diet and environment, and the administration of vitamin A, the cellular changes in the cells of the eye predispose the already stressed reptile to infection, so the application of a suitable topical antibiotic ointment is recommended. During recovery, artificial tears may also be useful.

Ciprofloxacin and similar opthalmic drops have been recommended over gentamicin drops because of a reported epitheliotoxic (kills epithelial cells) effect of the latter."

Nekton Rep used to contain preformed vitamin A and it looks like it still does (retinol is preformed vitamin A)....
http://www.nekton.de/html/html_eng/n_info_rep.html

lele said..."I am the wrong person to ask. Kinyonga (and a few others)was helpful in explaining it all to me when Luna had some neck swelling"..thanks for the kind words lele...but I'm no expert.

pernads said..."Lele, is there a way if the vet can find out if his Vit. A levels are where they are supossed to be?? Can this be determined with bloodwork. Im taking him back on Friday for another checkup"...I know they can test for vitamin A...but I don't know if they know what the levels are supposed to be.

pernads said..."I have given him 3 treatments of the antibiotic, and I have noticed that his eyes are more round, they look a little shallower, and his eyes are a lot more alert. He has been very active today, and doesn't really mind when I put the antibiotics on his eye. He is a very freindly chameleon, unlike his lady friend"....I'm glad to hear that the eyes look a little better!

Wish I could be of more help. Hope that the problem gets solved! Please keep us posted!