Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Since the alterna season has already started without any reports of success, I think it would be good to give it a kick start by getting a few lines rolling about all-time records for alterna collecting in the wild. My son and I have always hunted together. In fifty nights of hunting we have found seven alternas - four on Juno, two east of Langtry, and one within city limits of Sanderson. We have caught an alterna on average every 7.1 nights. Who would like to pipe in to share their total take over the years, divided by the number of nights spent hunting. Although there may be many who have captured more graybands than we have, I would assume that our average - about one per week - ranks fairly high. Any takers?

Forky chime in here bud..........of a 2 night period one year there was about 22/23 alterna collected out west. This involved a " special " climatic condition either there or rumored a climatic condition in Mexico or the east coast of Texas if memory serves me right. AND the fact there were very many multiple numbers of hunters. I seem to remember a similar event maybe more than one time out on 277 as far as multiple numbers of alterna seen but the reason might not have been the same. I know this in not in correlation of what you asked necessarily. But some place on here and probably archived, there has been information of what you ask. This thread/post will probably bring that info back up again. The trouble with what you ask and my post, is that some people may not be included as their numbers will not be included of finding for various reasons. So actual numbers could " actually " be more on any given night/s/year. Some of this data is PRE COMPUTER also ! Of that one event out west of that year, it certainly was ! LOL !
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

He wants total take divided by total # of nights hunted. I seriously doubt anyone has that data set recorded 100% accurately.

This will be my 30th year in west Texas. Some years I spent 100 nights or more hunting. So whatever my number is for that data set, it isn't pretty.

If you look only at the total, it's not bad at all

Joe, would you email me??
markk15 at msn dot com
Thanks.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

..... right place at the right time .....#of blair's, mexicana,alterna,gray-banded, whatever /amt of time =2.6 per 7 days since '76

how many of those nights are in Val Verde county?

One year I spent 40 nights on Black Gap for a big goose egg! haha (I should go back someday, I'm due....)

the alterna pirates would stay in langtry for 14 to 21 days...and beat the krap outta those roads and then q-beamin', dodgin' wardens, tolerating hollister's humor, earl turner and mike bishop's farts, the infamous merker/tremper attack on the pirates' room at the casa blanca, fake snakes...also there was a time frame when we had the area to ourselves...of course we had lots of guidance....and just tremendous luck....i'd rather not put up a number, but i took more than i should have and really ain't that proud of that type of collecting, just how many of one species does one need???........o yeh, my barker frog will be 8 years old this june ...

Hey .... my barker will be 8 in June as well.....277 June 1998....and my percentage.....nothing to shout at...but 36 live 6 DOR for 320 nights....you do the math! G

i've three....how do i get them to breed??.......yo, how come i ain't in your book???

Why should you be in his book Bob? Running down Hwy.90 nekkid does not land you a spot in the book. lol
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Steve W.

ask gerald 'bout the year me and george kept findin' snakes right in front of him and tremper.....aaarrggh...the alterna pirates

Wow! That is about the best ratio of nights hunting vs. graybands found I have heard of. Obviously, you've learned to place yourself in optimal areas under optimal conditions in order to get your results. Of course, luck is always a factor, but I would guess that you've used your noggin, too.! Way to go. BTW, how many alternas have you personally found?

last year was my first year out west and if you only include the first night i am 1/1 on alterna. my first night out grabbed a smokin 277 male. was out there a total of 4 nights, total animals were:
1 male alterna
1 male emoryi
1 Hypsiglena
1 5'2" suboc
1 male Rhinocheilus
2 lepedius
2 molossus
1.1 Coleonyx brevis

that was all in the first three nights, we got skunked comletely the last night, but what a run the first three, it was amazing. so over all on alterna i am 1/4 nights. hope to head out again late june and improve the average.

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www.southtexasherps.com

HEHE this just in...0for 10 nights..had it all to myself no other hunters around... got hassled by BP on 277 heading to loma Alta, that guy is a dork, tall white guy, asked me if I had a snake hunting license, blah,blah, blah...all other BP's good and amiable, tons of bp activity and saw the troops roll out of Del Rio to work on the fence around Osman Canyon on 90. Totals looked like this(sniffle)
Sunday
1 red coachwhip Bakers Crossing
1 dor longnose 277
1 aor LARGE atrox 277
1 aor G.P.rat 277
1 rough green at graffitti rock on 277
Monday
2 Collared lizards Seminole Canyon S.P.
1 Trans Pecos whiptail Seminole Canyon S.P.
3 aor 1 dor juvy atrox upper 138 Juno
Tuesday
1 scute Ozona area
1 juvy suboc Ozona area
3 dor atrox Howards draw area
2 blue spiny lizards Kickapoo Caverns S.P.

Was hoping the east had gotten some rain but as it looked dry I don't know. Moon had nothing to do with it, rising at 4:00 a.m., wind was blowing pretty good day and night, temps held to low 70's at night. Wrong place wrong time, but I will be back and a good time was had except for BP #1 a$$hole. Guy needs to get a life, maybe someone spotlighted him?
Todd Hughes

>> 1 scute Ozona area
>> 2 blue spiny lizards Kickapoo Caverns S.P.

Yo Todd,
I'm not sure about the Scut from Crockett, that would be a new county record, but I wouldn't say impossible.

The Blue Spiny's are another neat find. AFAIK they are recorded from Kinney county but Kickapoo is across the county line into Edwards, which would be a new county record, again, AFAIK.

I got your e-mail, I'll reply to that shortly, so check your mail soon.

Forky

Well the tail bands were wider, not approx. same size and the "diamonds" were open at the back, not complete. Maybe viridus? I know all are variable but unlike any atrox I've seen, including west Texas. Those spinys are almost the only lizards I saw on the cuts and Kickapoo is close to the county line. Tried to noose 'em but it was too windy for the dental floss! Need some piano wire. lol! It is like I never left work, same ol' same 'ol. Hope to hook up wit ya'. Call ya 'bout 10:00.
Todd Hughes

Hey man!
Are you sure on the ID of the scutulatus? That is quite a bit out of their range and the habitat is not optimal for them... there are some neat-looking atrox out there though!
Now that you have left, looks like the rains are coming...

Happy herpin'...

MP

Hey Price,
You know everyone says that scuts prefer creosote flats, and generally I would agree with that at least in southern Brewster and Presidio. However, it is interesting to note all the contiguous Creosote flat habitat where scuts are absent or extremely rare such as southern Terrell and val Verde county.

It's also interesting to note how prevalent they are in 1) Tobosa Black Grama Grassland of Northern Brewster / Pecos counties, and quite a few occurances from Gray oak / Pinon Pine / Alligator Juniper and most significantly the Mesquite / Juniper Brush of Pecos AND POSSIBLY? Crockett counties.

I figure it was probably an atrox too, but Todd and I got to stare at quite a few scuts together just last October in Brewster and Pecos, and he knows that sometimes it's quite easy to tell what the snake is, and sometimes it's darn near impossible. Without a doubt atrox and scuts are mixing in several areas of the Trans Pecos, and there has been discussion about this very topic right here in the past.

Todd, did you get a photo?

Forky

No photos, blew it all on the lotto, lol! I need one more good hurricane shutter job and I've decided to do it no matter what. I wish I had taken some pics, the lizards are always too quick. Had fun and I almost was cussin' you Joe as Howards draw has not much to offer coming to it but BAM! afterwards was awesome! That is some great habitat!
Todd Hughes

" It's also interesting to note how prevalent they are in 1) Tobosa Black Grama Grassland of Northern Brewster / Pecos counties,"

It's all about 3 things I think... elevation, elevation, elevation.

"and most significantly the Mesquite / Juniper Brush of Pecos AND POSSIBLY? Crockett counties."

What part of Pecos county are you referring to here? Crotalus scutulatus are known to be quite common in western/central Pecos, but where are the juniper brush areas that you are talking about?

Howard Draw is a really unique area where you can see "western" animals (subocularis, alterna, bairdi, lepidus, molossus, brevis, poinsetti, etc.) as well as "eastern" animals (Micrurus, Opheodrys, Gerrhonotus, Holbrookia, etc.) I just don't think scuts make it that far east...

Looking forward to the Durango talk in June!

Happy herpin'...

MP

>>" It's also interesting to note how prevalent they are in 1) Tobosa Black Grama Grassland of Northern Brewster / Pecos counties,"
>>
>>It's all about 3 things I think... elevation, elevation, elevation.

The questionable habitat is well within the elevational preference for scuts in other known habitats, so it must be something else, or elevation plus something else, but not solely a matter of elevation.

>>
>>"and most significantly the Mesquite / Juniper Brush of Pecos AND POSSIBLY? Crockett counties."
>>
>>What part of Pecos county are you referring to here? Crotalus scutulatus are known to be quite common in western/central Pecos, but where are the juniper brush areas that you are talking about?

Almost all of S and SE Pecos, and northern Terrell is characterized as "Mesquite / Juniper Brush" on "vegetation Types of Texas, 2000, Bureau of Economic Geology, UTA". This extends into SW Crockett.

>>
>>Howard Draw is a really unique area where you can see "western" animals (subocularis, alterna, bairdi, lepidus, molossus, brevis, poinsetti, etc.) as well as "eastern" animals (Micrurus, Opheodrys, Gerrhonotus, Holbrookia, etc.) I just don't think scuts make it that far east...

Maybe not! But then again we figure out new things every year. New county records occur almost daily. Just because it hasn't been there found yet, doesn't mean it isn't there. Up until last year Barking Frogs were not known from Brewster county or from Prairie Dog towns.

I'm not insisting they are there by any means, I'm just stressing the "possibility".

Forky

>>
>>Looking forward to the Durango talk in June!
>>
>>Happy herpin'...
>>
>>MP

or western hoggies!
Todd Hughes

understanding/digesting post, ( could be my old guy absent mind or reading glasses ). Is someone saying that there ARE no to not much scute observations in areas other than creosote habit, rocky habitat or else such habitat ? What would one call down on 118 about 30 miles south of Alpine and maybe stretching for a good 30-40 or more miles farther south ? I came to calling it the possible floodplains of the desert. Extremely flat ! With not much plant life except cactus and the low shrubbery and other non-cactus succulents. Driving this area to get back to the Study Butte area when staying in and around Study Butte and leaving Alpine at getting dark to hunt south back down > has netted me MORE scutes ( only observation wise )than ANY other given area in all my years down. If I'm off track on this thread, please forgive me !
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

that area is characterized as Creosote Flats.

What I'm hashing out is the Generalization that scuts main habitat is creosote flats, or at least a lot of folks seem to think so.

In reality this may be a much more recent adaptation as all that land was over grazed in the last century. I see far more scuts in the grasslands than I do in creosote flats, but that could easily be an observational bias on my part.

I'm also discussing the possibility of range slightly further NE than presently recognized.

Forky

I would love to find another rough green on 277. I found a huge DOR rough green that was probably 30 inches long at the big cuts south of Loma in 1997 but that's the only one I've ever seen.
Was yours found at night? Active? Sleeping?

about 16-18", sleeping in a branch at eye level, like I find them often down around Corpus, but I see them and ribbon snakes sleeping closer to the ground next to creeks in the lower branches futher north. They are the easiest to find at night.
Todd Hughes

Cool thanks.

Some years are good, some suck horribly. Last year I hit Langtry for one night, 277 for 2 nights, saw NO snakes whatsoever.
I've been out there for over 30 years and last year was the second year I've struck out One year I averaged one per 1.5 nights
1987 was the first year they were off the 10 year protection. it was a very wet spring in Val Verde. I found 10 in about 20 nights.
1988 was an excellent year, probably 1 per 1.5 nights. I got 10 in May. Many years I got none in May.
This data is mainly Val Verde and Terrell counties. I've caught one river road, one black gap (missed a couple others there, one live boy scout road.
Bear in mind that in the early days it was all road cruising. The only traffic on hwy 90 after dark was herpers and an occasional rancher heading home from having a few beers in Langtry. We found sufficient numbers on the roads back then. Now traffic has pretty much cut out finding stuff on the roads, at least alive.
I have also field collected 3-4 alterna, a real rush.
Herping The Trans-Pecos

forgot to mention. I'd guess 1 for every 4 nights over the years. Many nights, nothing. A couple nights 4, many nights 2. It is not unusual to go 4-6 nights without seeing an alterna, even if others are finding them. Hang in there - your time will come.

Oh I will. I know you gotta put in the time. I saw porcs and bobcats and ringtails, and a very large hawks nest built on the 2nd cliff east of Ozona, the first cliff was where I did the Tarzan hang trying for the suboc! It's all good! No Bairdi, though and I thought that was going to be common. How about the rough green sleeping in the bush on 277? Common? That is one hardy snake for as delicate as it is!
Todd Hughes

Shoot those ringtails. They are snake-eating machines. I had one grab an alterna off the road in front of me in the Lozier Canyon area. I had the displeasure of watching it scoot up a cut with it.
Make a sacrifice to Alterna Tonka. He will reward you.
John

a ring tail on the rock guard wall on the Big Hill with a snake in mouth. Have no idea what the snake was. Another time saw what ever species of huge owl take off in our headlights on the Flats with a snake in talons.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

I've seen the owl swoop before, right in front of me way down south on 77. That was a trip!
Todd Hughes