Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I asked this in the "wrong" forum so ill repost it here

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Hello

I bought my first pacman on Sunday, March 12th, 2006 and since then he has been eating a mouse every 10-11 day
Taken em at once they have enterd the terraria

but now he just sits there and dosent care about the mouse not even when its sitting on his head.

its 18 days since he ate.

The tempeture is 29C in the warm part and about 24 in the "cold" part

anyone know how i can trigger it to eat or how long i can/should wait before i should get worried about it?

ideas and hint are most welcome

Cheers!

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I have tested with worms and crickets to same reaction

Cheers!

More info:: He stoped croaking like 8 days ago....

The problem is the mice. Mice should only be a treat given to pac's only once a month. The pinkies or fuzzies have lots of fat, and when eaten frequently, the frog gets fat buildup. This may cause your frog to slow down and sometimes go into hibernation.

If I were you, I would stop the frequent mice feeding. Use gut-loaded dusted crickets as a staple food.

About the frog: Pick him up and look at his sides and belly also feel his belly. Does he have any lumps sticking out or does his belly feel like it contians a large hard bump. If so then your frog is probably impacted. This means that he consumed some substrate while eating and now it is stuck in his digestive track blocking all other food (this causes loss of appetite/hunger). Frequent mice feeding can also cause this. If this is the case you'll want to put him in a warm bath once or twice a day. This will encourage him to poop . His impaction can last up to several days so dont expect him to start eating like a monster right off.

If impaction is not your case, then he is probably slowing down because of the fat buildup in his body. Try to increase the temp during the day to 80-82F. He wont be so hungry and will stop being active. (no moving around, no croaking, etc.)I also reccomened the warm bath just to encourage pooping. He will slowly come back to his usual self in some days.

If he stops eating crickets(meaning he will not eat a single cricket)for more than 2 weeks, then i reccomend seeing a vet.

The most important thing to remember here is: MICE ARE ONLY MONTHLY TREATS. Feeding your frog a mouse every feeding time would be like you eating 4 strips of bacon two times a day every day.

Good luck and post any other questions u might have...

Hi and thanks for the reply )

this is pictures taken of him right now he dosent look unhelthy or so.
but i laid him in some warm water to see if it makes him poop

if you can see something wrong on the picture pls let me know

Nice Forg!

Hmm... I don't know... He does look pertty bulged up on his sides (probably because of eating mice).

I can't really tell, he seems to be ok (about lumps and stuff). Did u try feeling for lumps yourself?

Keep putting him in a warm bath once of twice a day, just in case. When was the last time he ate? What did he eat? If the last thing he ate was a mouse, dont feed him for a couple of days (2-3). Wait till he gets hungry then feed im a cricket or two.

Good luck and keep us posted...

He has only been eating mice couse that was what i were told at the store to feed him(first frog i ever bought and it was a impulse buy against my better knowledge and i have since then been reading everything i can find)

Last time he ate where now about 18-20 days ago i got worried when he stoped croking about 8 days ago. becouse i been like "talking" to him every night (hehehe)

ok so now im getting worried.... he dosent give a damn about anything worms, crickets, roaches etc etc

should i increase the temp ? its about 25C in the part where he sits all days...

oh btw its 25c in the cold part the warm part is about 30C

Have you been supplementing the frog with D3 when feeding it the rodents? If you have not then the frog may be unable to eat due to a form of "MBD". I would be careful with the warm bath recommendation as warm to people is typically 98 F and higher and this is too hot for the frog.

Ed

The comment that mice are too fatty is commonly tossed about without regard to the metabolic needs of the frogs. Rodents are not too high in fat, they are typically offered too often by people who do not understand the metabolic needs of the frogs. They are calorically more dense so it is easier to over feed the frog on them (but then this can also occur with any food item offered to the frogs). In general, rodents compare favorably with insects with regard to the fat content.

Something from the archives I wrote awhile ago regarding the fat content in mice...

snip Actually house crickets contain 54% fat/kcal*, while commercial crickets contain 44% fat/kcal*, compared to 60% fat/kcal* for mealworms. Compared to a 1.5 gram pink which is 40% fat/kcal and an adult mouse (27 gram) which is 47% fat/kcal. Pinks do not take a jump in fat content until they are larger than 4 grams at which time they hit 60% fat/kcal which is no higher than mealworms.

The only low fat invertebrate that is commercially available are earthworms but a diet os solely earthworms has been linked to muscle diseases in anurans (see Modzelewski, E.H.; Culley, D.D. Jr.; 1974, Growth responses of the bull frog, Rana catesbiana, fed various live foods; Herpetologica, 30(4): 396-405)

* Donoghue, Susan; Langenberg, Julie, 1996, Nutrition, In Reptile Medicine and Surgery, edited by Mader, Douglas R., W.B. Saunders Company, Philadelphia "endsnip

So Ed,
Are you suggesting that it is OK to feed mice more often? There has been much debate about mice causing this or that problem in horned frogs; My own experience has been that the frogs seem to suffer more MBD if they are maintained on crickets with occasional mice rather than the other way around. (All food given with weekly/bi-monthly dusting depending on the feeding schedule)
My oldest, (8 years) won't take anything other than mice. He was raised on fish, then pinks, then mice, and never touched a cricket and is in fine form.
I think most of these obese horned frogs are merely being fed too often; when you have an animal such as this that rarely if ever takes a stroll, my feeling is that calorie requirements are much less. Perhaps it is more about how often to feed, and not about how much fat?
Regards,
froggie

snip "Are you suggesting that it is OK to feed mice more often?"endsnip

If you mean as a greater part of the overall diet then yes. If you mean as feed more frequently overall (ie weekly etc) then no. It depends on the caloric needs of the frog (the calculations for which should be in the archives).

snip " There has been much debate about mice causing this or that problem in horned frogs;"endsnip

And in many other animals.

snip "My own experience has been that the frogs seem to suffer more MBD if they are maintained on crickets with occasional mice rather than the other way around. (All food given with weekly/bi-monthly dusting depending on the feeding schedule)"endsnip

As long as you are supplementing the rodents as commercially reared rodents are typically very high in vitamin A which can lead to one of the forms of MBD.
MBD when using other food items maybe due to an insufficient dusting regimen particuarly when using older supplements. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus in insects is typically really skewed and there needs to be sufficient D3 in the diet to ensure that the frog can metabolize the calcium. In older complete supplements, the D3 and A can react leading to an improper ratio of A to D3 to E (10 to 1 to 0.1) The current recommendation by some of the exotic animal nutritionists is that if the animal is fed three times a week or more, then the complete supplement should be alternated with calcium carbonate (at home I alternate Herpetivite with Rep-Cal). If the animal is fed less frequently then the recommendation is to supplement with each meal....

snip "I think most of these obese horned frogs are merely being fed too often; when you have an animal such as this that rarely if ever takes a stroll, my feeling is that calorie requirements are much less. Perhaps it is more about how often to feed, and not about how much fat? "endsnip

Yes, it is about supplying calories in excess of the metabolic needs of the frog. You can cause obesity in all kinds of herps...

Ed

I would not worry, not yet anyway. I have had one of my frogs hibernate and not eat for as long as five months! When he wants to eat, he'll eat, I promise. If you have reason to believe he is sick, please go to my website below to maybe help diagnose the problem! Goodluck!

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