Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've had Chameleons my for a couple of years and this is the first I've had a problem. My female is around a year old, she layed a clutch of eggs 2 months ago. She's been totally fine (healthy) until just three days ago. She's laying in the dirt in the potted plant in her cage. There's a nesting box available but she's not digging, and not fat (like she was before laying eggs). She ate a silkworm 2 days ago, may be a little dehydrated (I soaked her yesterday) but mostly just laying around low in the cage. Should I be expecting a tummy ache and give mineral oil? That's what I've seen suggested in previous messages. I don't have a local herp vet (2 hours away and it's Friday before a 3-day weekend) Any other suggestions out there? Thanks, Jamie

Not Mineral Oil...

You are thinking of the brand name of a vitamine suppliment called Miner-All

Thanks Will for your response. I've been checking the message board all morning. However, I was refering to the REply from dianefisher to kriswaters 'RE:slight improvement this AM'that was posted yesterday. I read in that message that mineral or castor oil, one drop per 48 hours might help with constipation. I do dust her food once a week with minerol. But was wondering about vegitation, she's never eaten veggies, just crix, mealworms, Silkies and a few butterworms. When I held her today she didn't respond much (unusual)and seemed to gasp a couple times. Not sure if she was trying to hiss at me, gulp air, or maybe a respritory problem. ???

You said..."She's laying in the dirt in the potted plant in her cage"..do you mean laying on her side or just sitting hunched down on the branch or floor of the cage?

What makes you think that she needs mineral oil? Has she not been pooping? If so, do you have any substrate in the cage? Is there any possibility that she has ingested soil or anything else in her cage?

Has anything changed lately to do with her husbandry or cage?

If she's sick, she really needs to see a vet IMHO.

She's pretty much just flat on her belly in the dirt, not laying on her side. I've never seen her just stay so low in her cage for so many days. She hasn't eaten the last two days so no, I haven't seen any poop but I've been giving water with a dropper. Her color's good, there's not substrate on the very bottom, however a bit off moss around the edges of the potted plant. No changes in husbandry.There's a male across the room, so today I covered her view from him. I'm not clear on the frequency of a second clutch. Should that have happend? Could she be egg bound? She's not at all as fat as she was when she layed that first clutch so I don't believe she's preg. She really puffs up her belly too much to feel anything, but I'd like more info if you have it. Like the average time span after the first clutch if there's a second. You're right, I need to take her to the vet, but it's going to be a few days before I can get out of town to do it. Thanks for your help.

I can't give you particulars on frequency, I do know they can retain sperm and lay the rest/more later. If she is in fact eggbound (and it is obvious something is wrong) a few days could mean the difference between life and death. Not to be dramatic, but her body is not going to wait. Do you have someone else who can take her? An ultrasound may need to be done to see if she does have eggs or if there is some other problem. I don't think it has to be more than an egg or two to cause dystocia so you may not be able to easily feel them. I realize this is a holiday weekend on top of things (which also means this will be a slow time on this forum), but if you contact a local herp society you might find someone who can handle an emergency. The site below lists ARAV and other vet listings by state.

Did you increase her calcium during and after laying? she may not have been able to replenish and now has MBD and cannot hold herself up. You might try placing her in the laying box and beginning a hole for her. Can you post pics?

here is an article on Dystocia
http://www.anapsid.org/dystocia.html

and one on laying fatigue - a little different from what you describe but...
http://www.adcham.com/html/veterinary/egglaying-fatigue-kramer.html
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Lele: thanks for the link on the egg-laying fatigue article. You and Kinyonga are so great about posting interesting and appropriate links. DM
-----

dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon

I'm glad to hear that she isn't laying on her side....but it still doesn't sound good from the way you describe things. IMHO she needs to go to the vets ASAP. Once signs that something is wrong are apparent, things can happen quite quickly.

I'm not a vet...so I can't really be sure of what is wrong with your female....but I feel that its serious.

To me...if she were impacted, it would be quite a while since she had pooped last before she would be showing signs of it.

If she was mated for the last clutch, I would have thought that she could have retained sperm and should have laid the second clutch within 45 days of the last one. If she wasn't mated before the last clutch, then its not definite when the second clutch should occur.

One possibility for her behavior is that she has retained an egg or two from the first clutch that wasn't able to be laid for some reason egg too large, misformed, fused)?

RE: eggbinding...did she dig at all since the first clutch?
You said she's not very fat...that would make me think that she might not be gravid (as you said)....or that she was carrying very few eggs.

Egg binding is caused most often from not having an appropriate place to lay the eggs (you said she has a place), improper husbandry (see questions below) or physical problems that prevent the egg(s) from being laid (see comments above).

You said..."There's a male across the room, so today I covered her view from him"...has he been there for a while? Does she react to him? Its not good if she can see the male....it causes stress and may even make her produce eggs.

How's her husbandry? Temperatures? UVB light/sunlight (not through plastic or glass)? Do you feed gutloaded insects that are dusted with calcium? D3? Vitamins/minerals?

Fingers crossed for her!

Thanks for all the help out there. I'll try to get her in to my reg. vet who'll occasionally see my lizards, but isn't a herp vet. I did notice something when soaking her yesterday that previously I didn't think was a problem but am now reconsidering. She has dark patches on her sides that started under areas of retained shed. now that shes soaked a couple of times the old shed has come off but the dark color seems to have gotten larger. I also noticed little patches starting on the backs of her arms. I've never handeled her so much as this week and feel terrible that I may have been underestimating the discoloration! I'm sending a pic to see if anyone suspects this may be what's causing her illness.

your photo did not come thru. If it in the KS gallery or elsewhere on the web you can link to the page

The fungus comment is ONLY what I have read here, that that sort of discoloration can be fungus spreading. OR it could be something internal showing up on the outside now. Regardless, I think it is serious. Can you call your herp vet (usually SOMEONE can reach them for you) and at the very least do a phone consult, see if s/he can recommend another vet closer to you. Really stinks that this stuff happens over weekends - and a holiday to boot!

If it IS fungal, soaking may make it worse due to moisture. Again this is ONLY speculation on my part.

Where do you live?
-----
Chameleon Help & Resource Info
1.0 Nosy Be Panther Chameleon - Cyrus
0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
1.1 Side-blotched lizards - Ana and Stan for now
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skippy
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh, Died 4/21/06
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha, donated to science 4/4/06
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Are there any "pimples" around the dark areas?

What are the best items to keep oon hand as far as Mineral Oil, and different vitamins and such in case of a herp illness or emergency (herp first aid kit) until you can get to the vet??

I don't keep much on hand...liquid calcium, flamazine cream, and betadine are the main things....along with latex gloves, Q-tips, bird tape (don't know the real name for it), syringes(needleless), cotton balls, etc. of course. I have had fenbendazole from time to time....but don't have any left right now.

I keep: gram scale, flat toothpicks, Nolvasan, betadine, saline, self-stick gauze,tape/bandage, Ciprofloxacin tabs, Panacure-C (fenbendazole), stainless steel ball-tipped feeding syringes, 1 mil and 3 mil plastic syringes, pedialyte, hydrolyze and electrolyze, cotton swabs, cotton balls, white terry towels, clean white linen handkerchief, mineral oil, liquid bandage, silver sulfadine cream, neosporin, generic fungal cream, calcium glubionate, eye dropper, turkey or chicken baby food. Also bookmarks to reptile antibiotic and rehydration dosage charts. I refer to this link often when I tink I may have a problem. DM
Merck Veterinary Manual

-----

dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon

Where do you get all of these things??? Well, not the q-tips, etc....LOL

Various places. But paylessvet.com and 1800petmeds.com and I believe vetusa.com are three that I use. You can obtain ciprofloxacin tabs for fish without a prescription. and..if you live in a larger city with a really good pet/aquarium supply store you may find them and the Panacure and Nolvasan there. Veterinary Supply stores probably also carry some of the supplies. Tape/bandages come from my local CVS store. I prefer to shop over the web and just get the rest ofthe stuff at CVS. Diane
-----

dianedfisher@yahoo.com

My 3 CWD-Avanyu, Tripod and Drago
Valentino, Veiled Chameleon
Chyam, Nosy Be Panther Chameleon