Reptile & Amphibian Forums

and how much would it be?

There is no set in stone standard but the ones I've done are for a split of the babies with the split being based on the relative value of the two animal, the % of the annual breeding potential of each (i.e. female valued heavier since the breeding loan ties up 100% of her annual potential), and who does the work of hosting the breeding and hatching the eggs. Basically it has to be a win/win for both parties and there are a lot of risks to consider like parasites and diseases. It's also a lot easier if you can find someone local to you.

the breeder loans that I know of while didn't involve ball pythons but colubrids ( alterna, lepidus, subocs, some of the higher end tri-colors ) went south. Not ALL but a huge %. It would be best to know up front with :

Who and how much responsibility is on the person that has your snake for breeding in case of death, injury, etc. ( could be termed as " negligence " ) ,

The very thought out plan of payback for the loan itself > monies ? offspring ? ,

Put it in writing !

The reputation of breeder as a breeder ,

Any unseen unsaid and or hidden charges not discussed or on paper as in feeding, longevity of loan, if breeding doesn't take or successful and or offspring doesn't develop , .

OF course turn this around if you are the recipient of breeder loan.

I know of several cases that involved breeder loans of colubrids that resulted in very harsh feelings and one that even broke up a HUGE friendship that lasted 10 years because of mis-communications on the animal on loan of some of the above.

My advise : be careful and KNOW whats up front on a breeder loan.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Breeding loans can work but many go bad. Discuss everything up front and put it down in writing. If loaning a male, how many females will he be breeding? How will the clutches be split, percentage wise and selection wise.
I only split 50/50 or pass. Just my rule but I would consider other terms.
Depending on the loan, I may or may not get first pick from the first clutch. If I don't pick first on the first clutch, I pick first on the second clutch. if there is an odd number of visuals to split, the odd snake can be sold with the cash split or either breeder can buy the other breeders half ownership of that snake.
If I'm shipping a snake out, I pay to ship and the other person ships back at their expense.
Hope this helps.

In the case of only one party having a recessive, dominant/co-dominant and the other party having just a normal. Would it be fair to split 50/50?

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Steve Markevich

Updated Daily! SerpentsDen.Com

Justification for a 50/50 split depends on what the visual male is. Some visuals (pastel) are getting pretty reasonably priced. However I suspect even the price of big breedable normal females may have gone down some. It's conceivable that even on a straight market value comparison the right big clean proven breeder female might be equal to a young pastel male.

However, I believe you should also factor in the percentage of the annual breeding potential used up by the loan. A female can at most produce one clutch a year so the loan uses 100% of her potential. How many females can the male breed in a year? Maybe the loan only uses up 20% of his potential. If you look at it this way maybe the male could have 5 times the market value of the female and still justify an even split.

Of course other factors figure in to making it a win/win for both parties. Look at opportunity cost like what does the female owner have for males to breed to if they keep the female rather than loan it. If only a normal male then any potential for even one morph baby from a loan is a win. How about the morph male owner, how many females are already available to breed? Could they go out and buy females as good as the potential loaner and keep the whole clutch?

thank you for your help.
this is my situation. i have a normal female and would like a visual morph(ie. mojave, spider, ect.) but i dont have the money to spend to buy one. so i was thinking to have someone take my female, breed her to a morph male and have me pay the males owner for the service or let the males owner have all the offspring but one visual snake.

This is a little something I made up to help people in your situation.

It is a PDF file (you will need Adobe's Acrobat Reader to view the file...the reader is free to download from their site.)

Simply print out the form (two of them, actually) and fill it out. Most of the complications that some of the other posters have mentioned are ironed out on this form.

This is free for anyone to use.

I suggest printing out two copies so each of you can own an "original".

If there is something I left off that some of you may feel is important...just email me and I'll see what I can do to alter the form.

Breeding Loan Agreement Form

Good luck!

Brandon

P.S. Please excuse the rest of the site...I haven't had a chance to update it in quite a while...maybe with summer here I'll get a free moment or two!

I haven't done any breeder loans, but I have considered it.

If I were to do a loan, I would look at each clutch independently, and aside from thoughts about the "potential" of the breeders (ie. a male's ability to breed more females has nothing to do with "this clutch".

So, lets say a female is offered up on loan. The value of a female that WILL lay a viable clutch is agreed upon (say, $800-$1000. This may sound high, but this is the value that I would set for a female that WILL lay eggs.).

The value of a female that WON'T lay eggs is $0. So, no money would be exchanged until after a clutch hatches and the value of a female can be determined as either $A or $0.

The value of the male will be determined NEXT SEASON, based upon the value of the hatchlings. This way, the males actual value is figured, rather than the "potential" of the animal. If a male is valued at $6000 this year, but the price falls to $3000 the next, its actual value is set at $3000. Calling its value $6000 when determining the split of profits gives that owner an unfair advantage.

Now lets say that 6 eggs hatch, 3 morphs and 3 normals. The value of the normals is split 50/50. The value of the morphs is split based upon the value of the adults, say 3000/1000, or 3/1. The value of the hatchlings can be determined by their actual sale price (if they are all to be sold) or the price listed on so-and-so's site, previously agreed upon as the reference site. If the value of the morphs is $3000 per animal, then the total value of the clutch is $9000 about $150 for the normals = $9150. 9150 / 4 = 2285. Why divide by 4? Because a 3/1 ratio has 4 parts, 3 1. The owner of the adult male will get 3 parts (3 x 2285 = $6855). The owner of the normal female would get 1 part = $2285.

Add to that the other considerations such as who sells the snakes, etc. I assume that the female will go to the home of the owner of the male and he will be responsible for care. Any expenses should be split the same way, using the 3/1 ratio.

I like the idea of the contract form. Everything possible should be spelled out and agreed to so that friendships are not lost over misunderstandings.

Chris Morasky

"The value of the male will be determined NEXT SEASON, based upon the value of the hatchlings. This way, the males actual value is figured, rather than the "potential" of the animal. If a male is valued at $6000 this year, but the price falls to $3000 the next, its actual value is set at $3000. Calling its value $6000 when determining the split of profits gives that owner an unfair advantage."

If i paid 6k for a male,and then raised him up for myself?Then there is no way i would agree to that.I could simply buy said female and keep the remaining morphs for myself.

What i mean is...if a person has a large adult female ready to breed?Then they have two choices,outside of a breeding loan.Sell her and/or buy something high end to breed.(Maybe buy one of those 3k snakes from said breeder next year?,and then wait until the NEXT year to breed him.)

All your competition needs is ONE male morph(especially with co-doms/doms)to actually BE your competition.
If you don't make them pay for it,then how can you expect them to respect YOUR previous 6k investment when it comes time for them to sell their offspring?...they won't.

...just my own view on the matter.
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.