Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone seen any invasive hots in the everglades?
Several have told me theyve seen Monocleds as early as 2 weeks ago!

Yes...they were being carried away by Skunk Ape! (LOL)

This rumor is based on uneducated civilians running across hognose snakes in the glades and not knowing what they are.

The Everglades has recently gained a lot of attention for it's new residents. Another popular myth was that a disgruntled breeder turned lose dozens of western diamondback rattlers there. Also someone claimed the introduction of gravid female Fla Kings at Brooks canal-the purpose to breed out the more yellow "Brooksi" and thus protect them from collectors.

And no...the Lockness Monster is not there either.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

IS someone here saying that there ARE NOT non-native hots in some areas of Florida including the glades ? Sorry to burst bubbles but I know of 3 persons that knows hots that have come across : cobras, gaboon vipers, non-native crotalus. True that not all sightings were of the glades but other areas as well. I know of one wholesaler that got hit by hurricanes. I have heard of the non-reported sightings of hots by other private keepers that got hit by hurricanes. I have heard of let goes. My source ? My brother does LEGAL commercial collecting of water, pond, lagoon plants.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

No one wants to say there are escaped hots because it fuels the fire of banning the keeping of venomous as well as exotics of all kinds. It doesn’t help when an episode of Animal Police features a sensationalized story of the removal of a king cobra from the Redlands (people down here know where that is) I tend to think the whole thing was made for tv, I’m starting that rumor. No doubt hurricane Andrew blew away a lot of animal importers in that area. I have heard stories and there are lots of things that were lost including exotic birds. Reptiles probably survived. I don’t think people want to report what might be loose out there. Those Burmese could not really have come from people releasing their pet, who the heck would even drive all the way out there to do that? It was more likely some importer that got destroyed in Andrew. You can see exotic lizards in the driveway or parking lot of any reptile dealer in south Florida. They are cheap and they get away and nobody cares. Hots are a lot more expensive and would cause a major uproar. I doubt anybody is releasing them intentionally or accidentally. More likely to be planted and staged by those who want ammunition for a ban. I say, If you do find one, keep it to yourself.

>>I tend to think the whole thing was made for tv, I’m starting that rumor.

It's far from rumor. Our refuge loaned out the King they used for that show (not my decision, and I didn't know ahead of time).

The only snake in that show that I know was a legitimate escape was the spiiter, and that snake died days after it was caught, so probably would not have survived in the wild either.

HA! I knew it!! Still unsettling to hear about the spitter, how’d they know just exactly where to look? Talk about your needle in a haystack... I hope everyone will realize that the Everglades and the surrounding wilderness areas are not any kind of place to be for most people. There are lots of native venomous snakes, including pygmy rattlers, coral snakes, diamondbacks and water moccasins. There are now killer bees, caiman, alligators and crocodiles. We do have bears, bob cats and panthers. Wouldn’t want to surprise a skunk, either. So even without the possibility of running across some exotic, it is no place for a picnic, really. Stick to a nice park. The likelihood of getting tagged changing a flat tire or something has got to be pretty remote.

knowing that hurricanes are probably one of the MOST logical explanations of non-native critters. Set aside the supposedly burm problem. I have never heard of a zoo or other animal legit facility being banned from keeping any exotics except for war torn areas like the famous zoo of England having to KILL all of the venomous and dangerous animals back in WW11 due to the threat of bombing. ANY place can have a climatic event to wreck havoc on zoos and other. By climatic and or natural disasters : flooding, hurricanes, tornadoes ( in my region ) and earth quakes. WE know that hurricane Andrew did some MAJOR damage to zoos. Also some major damage to the private keeping community. There seems to be an outrageous amounts of non-native fauna being found in and around the Homestead area of Florida. I didn't put it there. You didn't put it there. So what did ? Can this be of a political or what cover up of non reporting as to maybe a thought of less tourism if it WAS reported ? Could also be a situation of general mass hysteria of public if they knew ? Maybe yes, maybe no ! I would agree what ever the situation is that one would most likely be hit by lightning before an encounter of a exotic ( other than bird maybe ) in Florida. AND this is my opinion and opinionated observation of the matter and not saying that it IS so ! Thanks for reading.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

>>HA! I knew it!! Still unsettling to hear about the spitter, how’d they know just exactly where to look? Talk about your needle in a haystack...

Easy, found within 10 yards of the shed it escaped from...

Gabboons??? Now I know someone has been pulling your leg Mchambers.

Sorry, but I am not going to buy hearsay. I have lived in S. Florida for over 50 years and spent hundreds of hours in the Everglades. Add to that I know many of the people who go out there, plus the local wildlife officer. No one has ever seen Gaboons running around in the glades...or colonies of any hots.

Nice joke...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

That was then, this is now ! How confident are you that there maybe HAS been one or more sightings of the African pit group? If I alluded to the fact that this may of been in what is known as the Glades proper, sorry and my bad. The source of the observation knows definitely what the gaboon looks are. Picture ? Next time if an encounter is made. But it's hard to convince a person that is in mid to upper body of water or mud to carry a camera along just to prove a point. Not that any sightings are in water you understand. And by the tone of some of these post, would even a picture and or observation data be a good idea ? What I don't understand is how anybody here doesn't think some of these mentioned species would not thrive or at least short term in the wild. I'm sure most know this but:

native geographic range and habitat of B. gabonica > " frequents MOIST, dense wooded areas and even swamplands ".
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

One can play the "maybe/what if" game and for certain, if one does not have to supply proof there will always be the excuses.

We hear a lot of those stories bandied around here for decades and it is allways the same.

That is then and it still is now.

Being there...and getting solid evidence proves a point. Supposition is not proof.

As one said above, all rumors do is supply "proof" to those who want people to think the Reptile Hobby has become so irresponsible here that it should be shut down.

I recieve at least once a month tales of large deadly moccasins leaping thru the air attacking people...and every tale is backed by an "Expert Witness." Tall tales abound here.

It is simple....Show me proof and I will buy it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

touché ! LOL !
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

All I can tell you about this thread is that I remember hearing stories back in the late '60's of cobras in the Everglades. I worked at Lion Country at the time, & offered a serious reward for proof. Never spent any money.

Despite the fact that Frank has not "seen the proof", there are Burmese pythons breeding in Everglades National Park. I do not know if Andrew is responsible, but that does seem the most likely reason.

~~Greg~~

Again, I submit...Lots of stories-no pictures or any other hard evidence to support either HOTS or breeding Burmese in the glades.

Greg, you just got bittem my friend by your own snake. LOL

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,

If I misunderstood you I apologize, but I think you said no hard evidence of burms breeding in the glades?

There was an interesting post on another site from a guy helping out with the burm research. He talked about recently coming across a nest.

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4610

Jason
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www.buckeyeherps.com

If he did, it's the first I have heard of anyone actually finding such. Did he take pictures?

If you'll excuse my skeptisism, as I have said above, I have heard hundreds of tall tales from the glades. I'd like to see real evidence.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I don't think he took any pictures because I don't think he was with them when the nest was found. Looking back at the post he said "They came across a nest earlier in the week." I understand your position and feel no need to change your mind. I have no doubt pictures will show up soon. He also posted another picture of a group of 3 or 4 found together. I know it isn't the kind of evidence you are looking for, but I find it harder to believe they are not breeding.

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4610&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

I believe it is at the bottom of this page.

Have a good one,

Jason
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www.buckeyeherps.com

See this is exactly what I am talking about. "someone else" found them translates into "Hard Evidence". I have seen news reports that badly mis-ided snakes in their stories. I know of one man who died here because he was bitten by a harmless snake that was mis-ided and was given anti-venom which killed him. Plus-some of the shots like the gator eating one looked posed.

Its not about changing my mind. It is about supplying proof vs the hearsay that keeps going on. I am as reasonable as any. Its like the big rattlesnake photo hoax that circulated around here. Way too many tall tales.

My definition of proof. First hand (confirmable) eye witness account with photos of eggs or netonates from someone who knows what their talking about.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

and field herp forum said no posts exist for that topic.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hmm I am not sure. When I click on the link it takes me directly to the post/topic talking about the pythons?

It is under

Pythons/Gators-NEW PICS ADDED and posted by Mikeyfresh on Sat May 20

It is also on the second or third page now. Things get burried fast over there.

Jason
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www.buckeyeherps.com

Interesting photos. I am very surprised that the nest of "40 eggs" was not collected and taken to a lab to determine first if the eggs were fertile and second that they were the correct species. Burm eggs dont look that different from gator eggs (least the ones I have seen).

Sounds (if you'll excuse me) as rather slipshod science to destroy a nest which would prove the breeding theory without taking samples to study.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

uhh, Frank, Burmese eggs don't "band up" like alligator eggs! Get your facts straight.

>>uhh, Frank, Burmese eggs don't "band up" like alligator eggs! Get your facts straight.

Add to this that alligator eggs are hard shelled, and buried deep in big mound of decaying plant matter and probably guarded by an unhappy female alligator, and no one with any clue at all would get them mixed up. There is no native species that lays anything that would be mistaken for burm eggs. If he wants to argue that they might have been retic eggs...

I don't know for sure, but I assume that the reason they didn't say they opened up the eggs to identify them was that they thought that was so obvious they didn't need to bother... Or maybe they got a hint from the big female burm thay had to drag off the nest first...

So the biggest piece of evidence on an debate that has been widly argued about was not collected or photographed because they felt it was a given?

That sounds even dummer than the rest.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Band up? This is something I have never seen in the gator eggs I have been shown. I appreciate your pointing this out.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>My definition of proof. First hand (confirmable) eye witness account with photos of eggs or netonates from someone who knows what their talking about.

We I think we already had this discussion in another thread, but just in case...

We're not talking about a reporter, or any random wildlife officer here. The person posting the story was a volunteer in the field and the people he qootes as saying they found a nest are the biologists hired specifically by the park service for the purpose of studying burmese pythons in the everglades. It's not like any average person with 5 minutes of instructions couldn't positively ID a 10 foot burmese in the park. Maybe some people might mistake a retic or a boa for a burm, but I hardly think that's a problem. Unless you seriously think it's an elaborate hoax by the National Park Service, I can't imagine why you have such a problem with this.

I've heard a lot of conjecture about how they got there and there's plenty of room for debate and study about that, but saying they're not there in numbers or that they couldn't breed successfully makes no sense to me.

Our refuge is a few miles outside the park, we stuck several burms we received into an outdoor enclose with no climate control and people walking by all day. They bred, we stuck the eggs in a box of (way too) wet mulch and threw them in the garage and forgot about them. About 95% hatched. I've been in areas on the edge of the park that were ABSOLUTELY PERFECT for incubating burm eggs. Hot, with thick ground cover and a mat of slightly moist soil almost like peat moss (maybe it is?). You think they would have trouble?

First of all Larry..I don't have a problem with this.

What I do have is a lack of willingness to accept testomony without proof. Maybe hearsay evidence is enough for you. Personally, I don't pass rumors as fact. The most basic scientific method depends on solid proof-not supposition.

Breeding burms in captivity is comonly done here. That your lab boys managed to do what dozens of breeders do here for a living again means nothing.

Breeding the same species in the wild is a far different thing. I am very well educated in how this enviroment works. There are a multitude of factors that work against any species succeeeding here even with our more favorable climate. Eggs here are exposed to predatory species, chemicals, and disease and even weather that are tottaly alien to them. All of these have to be overcome to reproduce successfully.

With native species dying out from man screwing with their enviroment, I find it even harder to beleave that an alien snake that is big-really big, would suceed when others species that are better designed to adapt have failed.

Like what was said above...Boas have been released here too and have failed-and of course they are livebearing which should have given them the edge.

I ask why?

It still remains very simple.

If it is happening, then someone should be able to find a nest and photograph it. Show me proof and I will beleave. Otherwise, we are all getting sore fingers typing over theorys.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>The most basic scientific method depends on solid proof-not supposition.

Ummm...no. Huh, huh. The scientific method depends on experiment and observation. In most situations, with the exception of medicine and other safety factors, the experimenter's word is accepted unless there is some good reason to question it.

>>Breeding burms in captivity is comonly done here. That your lab boys managed to do what dozens of breeders do here for a living again means nothing.

I can only assume that you didn't read what I wrote. They layed eggs, we set them aside, they hatched...in a mostly uncontrolled environment, virtually identical to the everglades except for the lack of predators.

>> Eggs here are exposed to predatory species

In case you've forgotten, burms are one of the few species that guard and incubate there eggs in the wild. Very little in the everglades is going to drive a 10-12 foot burmese off it's eggs. Insects might get some clutches, but if 1 in 10 make it, that's probably enough...

>>With native species dying out from man screwing with their enviroment, I find it even harder to beleave that an alien snake that is big-really big, would suceed when others species that are better designed to adapt have failed.

So then you agree that there is no way alligators could reproduce in Florida? Think about how similar their life cycle is... Obviously, burm eggs won't make it through the winter here, but they don't lay during the winter and almost certainly lay at the time of year that is most similar to laying time in their home range.

>>Like what was said above...Boas have been released here too and have failed-and of course they are livebearing which should have given them the edge.
>>
>>I ask why?

I have no doubt that if their numbers reached a certain level they could do the same. I don't see that fact that it hasn't happened yet as being that meaningful...

>>If it is happening, then someone should be able to find a nest and photograph it. Show me proof and I will beleave. Otherwise, we are all getting sore fingers typing over theorys.

Have you seen a picture of an alligtor nest in the wild? I don't think I have. And just for reference, if you've seen one on Animal Planet, it's fairly lakely it was filmed at our refuge or at the alligator farm a few miles from us. (Boy, I hope you don't take this too seriously...)

Excellent post Larry!

Randal

Sorry, but this description of the scientific method would make cold fusion a scientific truth.

I have never seen an alligator nest in the wild but lots of alligators of all sizes. We could have eradicated that population.

One thing of note its reported that not only single Burmese are found but sometimes groups. But it`s never mentioned the sex ratio in these groups. As always I guess the experts studying these animals forgot that male pythons combat especially during breeding season the losers vacant the area .It might be something to check .I would think a competent biologist would wonder that same thing.
To the best of my knowledge these pythons are not communal breeders. It might be some thing to look at next time they come across one of these "Groups" . I would find it pretty interesting that a number of mature males would all be found in close proximity to each other especially if a receptive female was near by. I hope this piece of natural history is being properly documented. Ok so the guys doing all the hunting don`t always carry cameras but a least carry a pen and make a few notes. I mean come on the tax payers should get at least that for their money.

On a side note you really can`t equate alligators to burms for one thing the gator numbers are a direct result of the special protection they receive and not because of their ability to elude detection .The idea was for the gator's to Re- Establish their presents after being pushed to dangerously low numbers as they were being hunted to extinction. Ernie Eison

There's hundred of photos and films involving nesting gator's that unlike the Burmese aren't staged shots.

>>On a side note you really can`t equate alligators to burms for one thing the gator numbers are a direct result of the special protection they receive and not because of their ability to elude detection .

Yes, but remember that even with the massive hunting that went on, enough of them survived that once they received protection they were able, in a few decades to repopulate to a point where THOUSANDS of them are being killed each year as they make their way back into populated areas that are hardly like their original habitat. Burms in the everglades proper enjoy essentially the same level of protection, except for the handful of people out there searching for them.

>>There's hundred of photos and films involving nesting gator's that unlike the Burmese aren't staged shots.

My point was that using rearfang's logic, I should not believe you because I haven't seen those pics. What you say is now third-hand info to me. Besides, if I actually saw such a film, how would I know it wasn't shot at the gator farm down the road? It looks EXACTLY like the national park... Unless you were actually present for the shooting, you have no basis for saying they weren't staged, if I feel like being skeptical enough...and even then I have no way of knowing that you aren't simply lying to me.

Uh...Larry, in the case of observable phenominom in the wild one does not take the observers word as "scientific proof". Otherwise the existence of Yeti's and the Lochness Monster would be considered Fact.

You have to supply evidence more compelling than "I am a scientist and this is my word."

Burms guard their nests...I know that. Now tell me how Burms could defend their nests against thousands of ants?

Note as someone pointed out. Gators have hard shelled eggs. As gators are the native species this arguement is just ridiculous.

I have seen gators and their nests in the wild thousands of times. I have touched them, eaten their meat, collected their fossils...wrong person to try this on. As for burms. I have caught one in town. I have collected their fossils (from a dealer in China) I have never tasted their meat.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>Uh...Larry, in the case of observable phenominom in the wild one does not take the observers word as "scientific proof". Otherwise the existence of Yeti's and the Lochness Monster would be considered Fact.

Let me try a different approach. This could easily sound insulting, but please don't take it that way. I'm speaking from the point of view of the people involved.

No one of any significance is disputing that there are burmese breeding in the everglades. People all over the state own burms in large numbers, a significant portion of which are NOT plain brown, normal pattern burms. Occasional stray burms are found all over the place, but HUNDREDS of them are found in one suitable area in the extreme south end of the state. Unless your theory is that hundreds of people are driving hundreds of miles to dump ONLY NORMAL PHASE BURMS in this one area and no other or that breeders or importers are losing hundreds of ONLY NORMAL BURMS only in this area then I'm not sure what you're thinking. If you realy believe that the park service (not just the biologists) is faking documentation of the finds and state wildlife officers AND civilians are getting burms from somewhere else and bringing them to our refuge and telling us they found them just outside the park then I don't know what to tell you.

Unless you assume this vast conspiracy, then by far, the most obvious answer is that they are breeding there. It isn't the biologists job to prove to a couple of guys on the internet that they exist. Their job is to find out where they are so they can be eradicated. If they were shooting for a nobel prize or even to get a paper published then maybe absolute proof would be required. That's no their job.

To date, no one has brought me a Yeti in a trash can, and if they did I'd probably be willing to take their word about where they found it instead of demanding pictures...

>>Burms guard their nests...I know that. Now tell me how Burms could defend their nests against thousands of ants?

Again, I said very clearly that insects would get some of the nests (I implied as high as 90%). I've been to the general area, I covered easily several acres and was not attacked by fire ants. They are not on every square foot of land. I even have pictures with no fire ants in them...

>>Note as someone pointed out.

Actually, that was me.

>>Gators have hard shelled eggs.

Which fire ants don't seem to have much trouble chewing through. They also seem to be well known to set up camp in alligator nests and get the babies as they hatch. But then, I haven't seen any pictures so maybe everyone's making it up.

>>As gators are the native species this arguement is just ridiculous.

I'm not sure I follow which argument you think that's a problem for... Exostic species quite often do far BETTER than the natives. Seen many green anoles recently?

>>I have seen gators and their nests in the wild thousands of times. I have touched them, eaten their meat, collected their fossils...wrong person to try this on.

Try what, facts?

I do get the feeling Larry that winning the debate means more to you than the facts of the situation and the consequences this state's collectors will feel - because of the way this combination of facts and rumors is being used to promote prohibitive legislation. No offence, but it is getting nit-picky and away from the subject.

I have Green Anoles living in my yard. I also have browns, iguanas, ameivas, and at least two species of exotic gekko. Brahminy Blind snakes occpy my property too.

So far the only compelling arguement on the Burm issue is the numbers being caught. Somehow no body I know has seen hundreds. It does suggest the possibilityof a breeding population, but without actual nests and eggs it still is an unconfirmed theory.

As noted, with all the people hot to prove or disprove this-no one thinks to bring a camera or to bring back actual eggs to prove it.

I ask you, who's streatching things there?

Actually as noted above, at least one state representitive and one county Commissioner are salivating at the prospect of proof so they can push their bans. More than just some herpers on line want to have proof.

"Try what facts?"

That's just rude Larry.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

No one of any significance is disputing that there are burmese breeding in the everglades LF

So in your opinion the only ones who count are the ones who stand to benefit most from a good monster snakes are taking over scare.You can add to that no one of significance has proved that they are. If they have legitimate proof why not produce it of putting forth speculation and relying on media scare tactics.

And yes it is the job of a biologist to provide evidence and data surrounding their findings.its more then if there simply breeding or not it`s about actual environmental impacts and realities ,the potential wasting huge amounts of money on situation that even if it turns out to be true may never amount to anything more then just another nuisance species .All the while problems that we know are devastating are getting passed over.

Ernie Eison

>>>Like what was said above...Boas have been released here too and have failed-and of course they are livebearing which should have given them the edge.

Biologists hired specifically by the park service for the purpose of studying Burmese pythons in the everglades.

That in it self is interesting especially given some of the quotes by the guy in charge Skip Snow. I`d have to say his studies aren't very well researched or very sound in their principle. If the quotes are accurate this is a guy who obviously is enjoying his 15 minutes in the lime light. Even if there is a basis of truth his comments read more like national inquire fair then scientific opinion .I don`t understand why a guy in his position would choose sensationalism when given the importunity to provide honest in site.

Perhaps someone is fishing for a nice federal aid grant like the guys in Cape Coral are .For those who don`t know they applied for 2 million dollars worth of federal aid to clean up those pesky Nile monitors that have taken over. The terms of this grant provide plenty of spending room for the little extras that make life nice. To think these respectable State employed experts or the guys that pay them don't have their own agendas is showing way to much faith.

Ok they found a nest with 40 eggs and what did they do. Destroy it and provide no proof ? That's interesting. I would think if your a biologist studying the invasive nature of this species the thing to do would be monitor the nest ,study to see what happens , if the eggs go to term get some of those radio trackers and implant the offspring and then study them. See what their feeding on ,growth , survival rates etc. Wouldn't that type of data be beneficial ?

For professionals specifically hired to deal with such an important environmental issue judging from the data being handed out their not very sound or thorough in their methodology. It`s comes across as very strange that these scientist appear to prefer to operate on conjecture and speculation and pass up opportunities to gain facts especially if so much is riding on the out come. Ernie Eison

How come they were able to photograph wild Burms yet when they find the evidence that congressmen here are hungering for it remained amazingly undocumented?

What is the name of this group and what is their contact info?

Either these were some of the most inept scientists I have ever heard of....or something fishy is going on.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I`ve commented on this topic and the people involved extensively before and all I can say is that it`s amazing they find a nesting female and don`t get a pic. But there always seems to be cameras around when it come to finding previously implanted animals sort of like when ever the Animal Planet guys show up they always ended up the money staging shots .Why ? Ernie Eison

>>I'm sure most know this but:
>>
>>native geographic range and habitat of B. gabonica > " frequents MOIST, dense wooded areas and even swamplands ".

But how many know that it's range is almost entirely within 10 degrees either way of the equator, at elevations where it rarely gets below 70F? Guess what would happen on those few days when it gets down in the 40's here...

you poster too ? LOL! I NEVER said LONG TERM ! In either living or breeding. ( if I got your post right ). But for the simple fact in my state of Kansas and the releasing of atrox out in an area that gets colder, longer winter from their other distribution range, some ( because the actual number may never be known ) have been there for years, made a stand and have bred and had offspring's to my knowledge. Sooooooooo, anything is possible pertaining to this thread.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

>>you poster too ? LOL! I NEVER said LONG TERM !

Fair enough. I guess I was thrown off by the use of "thrive" and "short term" in the same sentence... If you simply meant that they wouldn't croak within seconds of hitting the ground, then I can't argue with that...

I have no doubts about burmese pythons breeding in the everglades. They radio chipped a few and released them and those led them to others. They can find each other out there somehow. I do have doubts that a clutch of python eggs could survive the incubation time without being found by fire ants. Same with a lot of other egg layers- including gopher tortoise. I think some of us here are the ones who would know if there was something out there because we have done the time. I have known wildlife officers with fifteen years who have never seen a panther in their life, and I have seen them on four different occasions out there. I spent a lot of time off the paved roads. Hearing that the made for tv exploitation was a staged thing just seems to reinforce the hype is all bogus and hurtful to this hobby. There is a perception that anything is possible out there, including the skunk ape thing. There very well could be escaped cobras or gaboons but like the spitter that was just a few yards from where it escaped, the responsible party would probably hunt like hel to get them back. I don’t think a valuable snake would have to, nor would, go very far. If you’re into snake hunting out there I think you would be able to find what you were looking for, I sure couldn’t imagine they could become established. It would be hard to do intentionally, let alone by some lone accidental escape.

Another point for those not familiar with this area. The term “everglades” might be misleading. There are a lot of wetlands and areas out west of town that are not exactly “the everglades” and are not necessarily Everglades National Park. We tend to lump it all into the catch-all “everglades”. Any of the dealers places and rural areas where they kept their stock were not really “in” the everglades. Those Burmese found in the eastern edge of Everglades National Park, they are within a short and logical distance from where they probably first became established from escapees from the Homestead/Redlands area. They would find plenty of food and not have to migrate very far at all. Any escaped cobra or whatever (if they exist at all) would be very close by wherever the dealer (keeper) was located, not out in the vast wilderness of the everglades. You will also find a lot more snakes along paved roads, canals and agricultural areas than out in the middle of the boonies anyway.

Thanks Upscale,

It is nice to hear an intelligent arguement from someone who actually lives here.

I agree. Used to be that you could drive into a neighborhood, turn over some boxes and walk out with some nice local snakes. Since the eighties, the number of native species found declined with masive overdevelopement of this area. Most the snake hunters I know go now west of 27 and north to Belle Glade as hunting is very poor to the south. Snake hunting is not permitted in the park or the indian reservations, which doesn't leave a whole lot of dry land to explore.

It is true that the real glades are a mixture of sawgrass swamp and cypress hammock. Not a whole lot of ground that is high enough above water level to safely incubate eggs of a large non-native species-that nests would be impossible to find. Certainly, nests should be found without too much difficulty. Gator nests are easily turned up.

Fire ants have been a plague here but even they do not eat egg shells so once again, any that were laid would still be found.

This debate is not going to be resolved till someone actually has pictures to back up their claims.

I have seen Florida Panthers three times in my life (in the wild) also, once dead on the turnpike near Port St Lucie and once in a local Zoo and yet another as a legal captive for a nature center. I have followed a black bear through the woods of Lantana. I have caught almost every type of snake one can find in South Florida (except tantilla) and even caught a leucistic Dekay Brown Snake.

I caught a Burm (about 7') on the Griffin road canal. Aside from the machete wound to its neck, it was clean-obviously a captive animal.

In my 50 years here I have seen plenty and have a pretty good idea of what it would take for a non native species to be extablished here (I am on record with F&G for the discovery of establish pops of two invasive species).

Unlike some who posted here (no offence) I have been here and have experience enough to post an informed opinion. So I think until someone actually shows me some hard evidence, I will stick to my opinion. If Burms are breeding out there then it shouldn't take a genius to find and photo the evidence.

Before I state something as true I just want to see the evidence. That is reasonable.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Any argument on my part is to support the fact that stories of established cobras or anything else is a bunch of oversensationalized hooey. I guess you could let one go and then catch it and say you caught one. The local news won’t cover the fact that you just let it go to manufacture the story. I guess it isn’t enough to find a coral snake in your yard anymore. As you know, the habitat destruction is basically total and permanent. My opinion on the curly tails displacing the skinks and anoles is that they are far more tolerant of man and if it weren’t for them, we would have nothing. This is prime reptile weather down here. If it gets loose, it is going to live here. The natives are still here, but compared to the old days, they are practically gone. My problem with the burm thing is basically, why burms? Why not balls or boas, they were imported just as heavily. If some dealer got wiped out in Andrew, wouldn’t they have just as likely had something else besides Burms?

Good point. As livebearers, boa constrictors would certainly have the upper hand when it came to successfully breeding here, and they get big...and they likely have been released as well- yet none claim populations of them.

Curious isn't it?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Without "Hard" evidence this pleasant debate will continue. Some of you have questioned my motive for defending the idea that invasive species like burms and other's like gabboons have not established breeding pops.

What intrigues me here, is that so many are willing to accept on really scanty evidence that a situation is occuring (for some in a state they have never visited-or if so only briefly) that is being used to possibly change Florida Law in a way that will hurt our rights nationwide.

Whether you beleave it or not-stories like this are considered justification that is the fuel that fires people like Fla Rep Popell (R-Vero Bch) to try and ban all reptile keeping from Florida. Right now, a county commisioner in Palm Beach is trying to ban reptiles from all petshops in her county. These people are not above promoting any "so called proof of invasion" to generate public support.

Have any of you considered that Florida is the number one importation site in the country? That the world's largest reptile show is here? That this state is argueably the hub of the trade? Think about what the banning of reptile keeping here would do to the entire country.

It doesn't take truth to feed those who would eliminate our reptile keeping rights. Suposition and rumors can do the job well. The only defence against such attacks is to show the lies for what they are-before the public accepts them as gospel.

Some of you have made remarks about why I should be so "aggitated." We are fighting a fight here and now that can have a huge impact on everyone who wants the pleasure of Herp keeping.

So when it comes to beleaving tales of Burm nests...no, I will not hold it to be a fact-till I see proof. Why give our enemies more fuel to destroy our rights than they allready have?

Especially when no one can even produce a picture or even an eggshell to back it up?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Amen brother! A quote from an article about the Burmese invasion “The economic toll from damage by invasive species—and the costs of trying to control them—is enormous: U.S. $137 billion a year, according to a 1999 Cornell University study.” There is a slice of 137 billion dollar pie at stake. I am suspicious of those greedy money grubbing people who would do ANYTHING for the sake of a few dollars. Deliberately manufacturing this problem for their own benefit is straight out of the play book. We have a lot at stake and they don’t care one bit for the reptile hobby, of any hobby but the love of money hobby/vocation. What are these politicians and scientists actually doing to preserve the habitat of Florida indigo snakes? Gopher tortoise? Really, what? When they changed the definition of ‘wetlands” to mean it had to have a foot of water year-round, we lost them ALL!!! There is nothing but development in the future of every foot of Florida that is not presently under a foot of water, and then they will fill in the most desirable of those lands too. (the everglades averages about 6" deep, not even classified as wetlands))

It did occur to me as well that it would be in the interest of anyone breeding Burms and other big snakes in other states to have Florida shut down. Kind of helps their business.

Just a thought...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

You and I have the same goal, but I think you are grossly miscalculating your tactic for several reasons.

IF you manage to convince people that burms are not breeding in the everglades, then what? There is no disputing that they are there. People bring them to me. There are hundreds of reports, some with pictures and a couple freezers full of burms on-site. Even if those are a giant hoax, it WILL be accepted.

So what does that mean? The only other explanation is that people are realeasing them in large numbers on a regular basis. What could possibly be worse for our position?

If they are breeding, the damage is done and current private ownership has little bearing on the issue. If, as a lot of people think, they got started through a catastrophic event (namely hurricane Andrew) then there's no reason to believe that the occasional legitimate releases or escapes are significant since they aren't established anywhere else.

Furthermore, we need to look like responsible, reasonable people, and I don't think equating burms to yetis and accusing the park service of manufacturing an invasive species accomplishes that...

But you consider it responsible to jump on the bandwagon and state something as a fact, when the most damning piece of proof is missing?

Sorry I do not have any agenda here. If they ban Burms it means nothing to me personaly. I do not keep them. I am not even in the business of selling reptiles at this time. In fact, I am moving away from Florida next year.

So what do I have to gain?

Also taking my comments out of context does not help your cause either.

So if you want to "win" this-as it seems your priority-Show me photos at the very least.

Like I have said repeadely-Till someone shows proof- there is no reason to beleave.

All the rest of this is just BS.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I understand that this thread is going on forever and you're probably tired of it, but at least read what I write before going ballistic on me.

I did not accuse you in any way of having an agenda, other than the one I think you just clearly stated of helping to protect our right to own herps.

What I was saying was that what you seem to be trying to prove does not accomplish that goal but plays right into the hands of the people who want bans... I did not mean to imply that that was your intention, just the likely result.

For purposes of this argument at least, it doesn't really matter whether I believe the everglades is full of burms or not, everyone who counts (which does not include me) does. So unless you can prove otherwise, which of course is impossible, short of burning the everglades to the ground and sifting the ashes, you will just look paranoid (no matter how right you may be). I'm not saying I think you're paranoid, just that other people will.

If I took your comments out of context, it was only to show you how those comments will be used against us by the people you think you're refuting. If I've done otherwise, it was not intentional.

If what happens here in Florida means nothing to you (your exact words, I don't think I'm taking them out of context), at least have the courtesy of not doing any damage before you go. Again, sisnce I seem to need to be very specific, I am not saying you are trying to do damage, just that that is the only end result I can see from the point you're trying to prove.

I know it's hard to tell in type sometimes, but you seem to be reading a whole lot of malice into my words that is not intended. Maybe I'm not using enough smileys...

Larry,

You said, "at least have the courtesy of not doing any damage before you go..."

I spent my time in the trenches here. Since the sixties I spent much of my time - and a fairly good amount of money doing animal rescue, and supporting battles for and against legislation. I have fought for reptile keepers rights. I was part of the group that founded the Snyder Park Wild Bird Center, I led part of the survey that saved Pond Apple Slew from developement. I was very active in the fight to stop the banning of Boigas in the USA a couple of years ago.

There is much more, but I frankly, am not here to blow my own horn. What I did was never about personal promotion or any of that BS.

For you to say I should leave Florida before "I do damage" shows your ignorance. Who are you to judge whether I am damaging anything?

What have you done for this state?

This foolishness has gone on long enough.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Uncle. If you're going to put that much effort into finding the one phrase in a post that could be interpreted as an insult then you're right, there's not much point in continuing.

Thank you for all your efforts.

from now on im going to always have a camera on me and while im out there.

Good idea! just look out for those "other" denisons of the glades, those who fly planes and drop bundles of.....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank, you don't think Burmese eggs are exposed to predators, chemicals, disease in their natural range? LOL!

I also believe the weather where they naturally occur is ABOUT the same as in South Florida.
"Breeding the same species in the wild is a far different thing. I am very well educated in how this enviroment works. There are a multitude of factors that work against any species succeeeding here even with our more favorable climate. Eggs here are exposed to predatory species, chemicals, and disease and even weather that are tottaly alien to them. All of these have to be overcome to reproduce successfully."
(Your quote)

Also,I think you are skepical because YOU want to see HARD evidence, i.e. pictures, etc. This is sad because you don't seem to take anyone at their word. Sure, there are reporters, lay people and the like that tend to "embellish" what they saw,but folks like Larry are very educated people too and there opinion is every bit as valid as yours. You don't need to put Larry down,
"Breeding burms in captivity is comonly done here. That your lab boys managed to do what dozens of breeders do here for a living again means nothing." (your quote).

Whats that about? Why do this? Seems to me that you are thin-skinned, you can dish it, but can't take it.
Thats my two cents, uh, maybe a nickels worth! LOL!
Randal

No offence Tex but a basic knowlege of Biology would help to clear this up.

Like animal species-diseases have ranges. Some of the diseases that occur where Burms come from often are not the same ones we have here.

Also pesticides and herbicides we use here vary from what they use there. I know this because I was in the pest control business.

They also do not have the imported fire Ant which is a great destroyer of snake eggs (just to mention one predator species).

We have congressmen here that are lapping at any rumor to ban the keeping of reptiles here. Of course I don't like rumors that are not supported by hard evidence. I am amazed that anyone would!

Personal attacks have no place here. Calling me thin-skinned is pure BS...not proof that Burms breed in the glades.

Please try to stay on topic.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Yup, just what I thought, thin-skinned! LOL!

I thought the discussion was on burms.

Funny, when proof is lacking it turns to insults and BS.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Is there some reason why Texas does not have invasive species because your weather is "about" that from where me might find many species of reptiles. Oh wait, I forgot, with better navigation the aliens from Roswell, NM would have been in El Paso, TX. I am in the "proof" camp.

While I don't live in Texas (I did for 8 yrs)
I do know that Caiman and Med. Gecko's are established in south Texas, and I am sure there would also be other "invasive" species there as well.

So far the only absolute known source of Burmese released into the everglades are from the “scientists” studying the “problem”. Am I right about that? Maybe they are the proverbial “rocket” scientists. Who is claiming these giant Burmese are making tracks and flattening the grass wherever they crawl? Sounds like a motorcycle track to me. Did you see the photo evidence of the Burmese that was so concealed you only saw a little bit because he was under the brush and ground cover? I think that’s where the “tracks” would be. You’d have to press the side of your face to the ground and look horizontal to see any tracks under the groundcover. Like where the rabbits and rats travel. I smell a rat too in the whole Burmese thing. The original post here was about established hots, based on some rumors. The burm thing, even if it is being made for tv or government grant is at least real. They have pulled over two hundred out of Everglades National Park. Or maybe they photo op’d a single burm over two hundred times? Who knows. More hooey. There are no established cobras or gaboons anywhere in Florida. Any photo evidence someone shows up with now would be highly suspect for being honestly represented.

"Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts" - Bernard Baruch
"I'll be needing some evidence" - Bill Stevenson

Just to add to the post about invasive species in TX. I lived there for over 12 years and I have found Mediterranean geckos (Hemidactylus turcicus) In both S.Texas (N.Houston/Spring/Conroe) and N.Texas (Dallas/Desoto)

Chris
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Chris Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps

>>Is there some reason why Texas does not have invasive species because your weather is "about" that from where me might find many species of reptiles.

www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/invasive-species-choking-texas-ecosystem.html
Of course, there are no pictures at this link...

I do have photos of the geckos...will post them in a day or two (currently out of town and do not have them on my lap top).

Chris
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Chris Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps

I know of.........species of spiny tailed iguanas in the Big Bend area and the valley of eastern Texas going to The Brownsville area up the semi-coastal area of Sarita Beach and up to Aransas Pass. Plus green iguanas along the coastal areas have been observed. I KNOW of a small colony of Rhino Iguanas that escaped in the area of east of Port Aransas and Aransas Pass. I know because I knew the person that had these and the unfortunate accident. Now did or are any of these animals established ? The green iguanas are sporadicly reported , the spiny tailed Iguanas are occasionally captured and or picture taken ( by herpers though ), the Rhinos even though many , many years ago were still making small headlines ( not many reports and numbers and even what they were other than some BIG lizards seen ) in the very small newspapers floating around these small townships. This was occasionally reported for about 2 years after escaping. While I have my doubts on the Rhinos population of still being around, I don't have doubts about the spiny tails thriving and breeding ? nor the green iguanas. Every once in awhile a spiny is seen in the Big Bend west of there with one picture of several hanging out on a overlook rock taken by a Greg North.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Here is a photo of a Mediterranean Gecko Hemidactyl turcicus taken in Aug. 2005 in Montgomery, Texas. They are all over down there.

Chris
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Chris Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps

Here in Florida too. They supply a regular feed source for my Desert whip snake.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

we have collected in the Del Rio city of mid west Texas for neonate alterna food/starter food.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......