Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have this Female albino Pine. Can anyone tell me what species of Pine she is. She has 33 Mid-body Dorsal scales, 230 Ventrals, 52-54 Subcaudals (Paired), Anal Plate Divided, 9 Supralabials, 3 Supraoculars, 4 prefrontals.

And does anyone know if ventral scale counts in Pines is often wrong? The "DOR Pine in N. Florida" I posted about below looks like a Patternless Florida Pine, but it has way too many ventral scales to be a male Florida Pine, or a female for that matter.

Just looking for clarification. I'm an elapid guy getting into non-venomous. Scale counts are the only way to tell some cobra species apart.

RC

From the looks of the snake in your pic, it actually to me looks like an albino bullsnake.

Billy
-----
Genesis 1:1

np

Looks like he could use a few extra mice this week, where'd you get him? Tom Stevens
-----
TomsSnakes.com

She's not that skinny. It's a optical illusion. That's not the backbone sticking up. The backbone is sunken in in some places in the pic, but she does need to gain some weight, and I'm working on that. She has grown like a weed since I got her. She shed right before I got her, and twice since I got her last March 19th. She is 36" long and weighs 276 grams.

The guy I got her from is a venomous guy like me, so he didn't know what it actually was either. The snake was given to him and he was told it was an Albino LA. Pine. I traded him a young adult Egyptian Cobra for her.

Tom - I've read a lot of your posts and I do respect your opinion, so can you tell me why the DOR male patternless Pine I found in Suwannee Co. FL. has 229 ventrals? I posted pics on here a couple days ago.

Randy Ciuros

I know sometimes pictures play tricks with the image...I have a hard time getting decent pics of anything. When I do it is usually just luck on my side. Honestly I can't answer the scale count type questions. In my limited experience when this is brought into the picture sometimes things just don't make sense, two people will argue over this n that and want proof of something but then if the answer is not what they want to hear they disregard the facts anyway and go on believing what they want to believe. You watch, when DNA testing is more common and things really get confusing many people who have been in the hobby a long time will probably mention the facts in conversation, but still represent things as they see fit. I do not even know if crossing sub species will even affect the scale count so dramatically? Whst else could it have bred? A black or northern? A Rat snake? I would say it is a pure Southern Pine, but there will be others who will get pissy and say it is anything but that,.,,,escaped pet Hybrid or something LOL. Representing animals honestly is very important for the hobby. But I think in some cases we can only do our best. For example if you had a hot spot for Pines, you could devote many hours year after year to attempt to compile data on scale counts and what not and then draw a conclusion. If not......well it will be hard to get anywhere if the person your discussing the snake in question with simply does not want to believe.
I had a hard time with Goini over scale counts. The person arguing with me would not even count the scales on his own wild caught snakes saying it would not prove anything, though my Amel HAD to be what he though it was....bogus....which is BS.
Glad you enjoy my posts, I always like t read what everyone has to say on here....hopefully things will pick up on here when we all start getting babies. Tom Stevens
-----
TomsSnakes.com

I reckon scale counts are pretty much correct, but I also reckon there can be some specimens outside the normal range of scale counts. The DOR Pine I found 5 days before the patternless one, has normal markings and coloration. It's frozen right now, but when I thaw it out to feed to my Malay King Cobra, I'll check it's sex and scale counts and compare to the patternless. They were both found DOR within a mile of each other on the same road.

I wish the DNA testing was more common. It would make things easier in my opinion. If DNA testing were more common, those who misrepresent their animals would be known by all. I have bought a bunch of goini in the last year, but some look to be crosses, though I have no way of knowing. Only the word of the seller, and they all represented the snakes I bought as goini.

I'm not sure if crossing sub-species would effect scale counts, but crossing species where scales counts didn't really overlap probably would. Just my opinion. I'd rather not have the snakes to check this theory out, lol.

If you already have scale counts for your goini, I'd appreciate it if you can email them to me. I haven't even checked my goini. Most of them "look" like goini, but some others look like crosses. Most all were purchased from fairly reputable people, but I'd like to have some data from other peoples collections. I need to get the data from Means' site also.

I'm getting babies as we speak, but they are B&W Spitters. I also have eggs from Black Sumatran Spitters, Yellow Sumatran Spitters, and Moroccan Cobras. Next year I should have several non-venomous clutches. Can't wait.

RC
venomstreet@aol.com

I will email you off the forum soon, but a very smart man told me things are not always as we expect them to be, and that snakes in nature can constantly be changing a little here n there as far as color and pattern and possibly even scale counts...especially in a specific locale, and then even change back to what we would indeed expect things to be like. What I am trying to say is if your snake had a scale count dramatically different than what you had expected it to have, that does not mean it is not a southern/florida pine. For me to try n get scientific and really explain things in depth would bore us to sleep and probably not even make sense, it is more of an opinion than factual statement. If we're talking baout a snake where similar snakes regions overlap, I can see really investigating to your best effort to know exactly what it is, and to be able to explain why you think what you do. But if is a snake in an area where it would be hard to explain why you think it may be a cross/intergrade/ hybrid....then I would most likely guess it was pure. This is why Goini really frustrate me. I talked to a few people who worked with them and they were very hesitant to tell me what made theirs pure....it is not an easy question to answer in that case. I will write you soon, congrats on the eggs. Tom Stevens
-----
TomsSnakes.com

This pic was taken today, Sunday. The other pic was taken yesterday. You can see she's not really skinny.

RC

YEAH ...why dont you feed that thing ! !
LOL
-----
**********
Thanks
Jim
Home Grown Herps