Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, all.

It finally happened. Draco bit me! He had "used the bathroom" in his tank. This meant that I had to take everything out of the tank to clean it. Well, Draco was in his hide cave and he was spooked anyway because of my actions in approaching the tank and taking off the lid in the first place (No matter how slow and gentle I am around Draco, EVERYTHING still scares him at this point!). So... when I placed my hand on his hide cave and put my fingers on the inside edge to lift it out of the tank, WHAM!, Draco made a quick strike, sunk his sharp teeth into the knuckle of my right pointer finger, and immediately let go. It was enough to draw a little blood. I wasn't expecting him to give me a full strike so I was startled as a result! This was his way of letting me know that he was frightened and he did NOT want to be messed with! I DO realize that snakes of the genus Pituophis are well-known for their "attitude". However, being bitten is no fun at all! I guess this goes with the territory in owning a bullsnake. Oh, well... It seems like that I still have a lot of work to do with my snake in helping him to become a, hopefully, gentle adult. This means lots of handling sessions and, also, enduring more bites in the future! I am sure this WON'T be the last time that Draco bites me! Hehehe!!! Well, at least I now know that my bullsnake is NOT prone to bluffing (unlike most bullsnakes). With Draco... it IS the real deal, baby! It scares me to think what it would be like for me if he is still the same way when he reaches adult size. OMG!!! What a scary thought!

Take care,
Terry

"So... when I placed my hand on his hide cave and put my fingers on the inside edge to lift it out of the tank, WHAM!"

He struck at you because he thought it was time to eat!

You must remember that reptiles are not "children" and should be treated accordingly.
No matter how tame "ANY" animal is, it can bite at ANY time.
Treat your snake like a snake - not a child.
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Thanks
Jim
Home Grown Herps

Hello, Jim.

It is great talking with you again.

Yeah, I have a "bad" tendency of becoming emotionally attached to my pets (despite the fact that I DO know that Draco is a wild animal and not domesticated like a dog). Just like many people who see their pets (such as dogs, cats, hamsters, ferrets, parrots, koi, etc...) as "members" of their family. I am one of many, Jim. I've treated my previous bullsnake the exact same way and I truly believe that he returned my affection to me (He was a joy to have in my life!). I also feel that taking a few bites now and then just goes with the territory of owning ANY wild animal. I am NOT that ignorant! Nonetheless, I really do love my animals. I get a lot of comfort and peace from them when I am able to make a "connection" with them (I am referring to my vertebrate pets, NOT my invertebrate pets). It is hard to explain. I have a bond with them. It helps me tremendously! In fact, I understand my animals a lot better than I understand most people. If this makes me strange, then I am strange.

I can't help it that I am such an emotional, caring person. I'm guilty as charged! LOL!!!

By the way, Draco is a sweetheart when he is handled.

I can't thank you enough for such a WONDERFUL snake. Draco has helped to make my life even better. You are the best, Jim!

Take care,
Terry

I'm not sure how else to explain the connection or the strong bond which my previous bullsnake & I both shared together (I know in my heart that it was REAL!). "Affection" was the best description which I could come up with regarding what we both shared... even though it might not be accurate. I guess there are really no words to accurately describe it.

Take care,
Terry

Terry,
You sound like me, in terms of how we view our pets. I get emotionally attached to most of my pets, if not all. My two cats are members of our family and like you, I get so much owning my snakes as well. Loving and taking care of our animals is one of the biggest joys in my life.

I do believe, like the others, that Draco was showing a feeding response.

Keep doing what you are doing with enjoying your pets! It really does make life that much better.

Billy

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Genesis 1:1

Lesson learned. Don't stick your fingers in the hide without expecting to get bit. Either they think you are food, or they are defending themselves because they're cornered. It doesn't mean the snake won't be a mellow, calm, trustworthy when being handled. Certain stimuli just trigger an impulse in their brain that results in a strike.

It's good to know that you put alot of care into owning your pets, not enough people do that. But one has to remember that they have not been domesticated for thousands of years and their natural instincts are still strong. It was probably more of a defensive strike than a feeding response, since it was still in the hide area. Most pits chill out after a few months so you should not have to worry about it. Handling will easily remedy this. There are many tricks to picking them up, but first and foremost don't let it scare as it may cause you to overreact, such as jerking your hand back causing harm to yourself or the snake. Good Luck!!!

Scott Robinson

BILLY: I am glad that I am not the only one who feels this way! Thanks for backing me up on this issue.

CLYDESDALE: Your point is very well taken. Hehehe!!!

SCOTT: What you've said DOES make a lot of sense. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean since I've owned Pituophis in the past. So, this means that I am very familiar with snakes of the genus Pitouphis and I know what to basically expect from them. I personally think it was a defensive strike also and NOT a feeding strike because I had inadvertently spooked Draco just before he bit me.

GENERAL RESPONSE: Of course, I'm NOT gonna let a few bites here and there shake me up! I'm not worried about it. I'm not scared of my snake. I just don't like it when it bites me (Do you blame me?)! Hehehe!!! All of you know as well as I do that it just goes with the territory. Even though my previous bullsnake was as gentle as a puppy, he still bit me a few times that I can remember. My last bite from him occured when he was around 5 feet long. Snakes have their "bad hair days" too just like people! It is NOT realistic to think that they will always be in a good mood (Heck, I can sometimes be a b**ch too! LOL!!!). So, I make allowances for this with my animals.

Take care,
Terry

I just bought a young Red Bull Snake BECAUSE it bit me - and the saleswoman!

It looked reall neat - a nice red brown marked critter. It is about 2 ' long and was all coiled up like the rattler on one of those colonial flags. It was inflating its little body and hissing for al it was worth, rattling its tail and striking out from an impressive coil at any approaching hand.

I liked its spirit. I'm sure with time it will tame down with gentle care and lots of handling. As a matter of fact, once I got it back home, the critter already calmed down quite a bit.

I have a large 5 1/2 ' black pine snake about 2" in diameter who is as gentle as a kitten - always was - and I handle him frequently.

And hey, like others have pointed out, if I wanted something that was 100% assured to never bite, I'd have gotten a goldfish.
You can't even get those odds from a dog, cat or parakeet. Even kids can bite.

I hope this red bull turns out to the opposite sex of the black pine. I wonder what their offspring would like?

Hmmmmm.

Reading your post leads me to believe that you may feel that the snake is capable of having an emotional connection to you. I'm not so sure that is possible. Snakes are instinctive creatures...they want to eat, stay warm, stay hidden, find a mate, etc. Don't get me wrong. I love my snakes. I work for a community mental health program dealing with people's emotions all day long...when I get home I deal with the emotions of my wife and kids...I need that hour of dealing with instinctive creatures who do not need emotional support each day to mellow me out.

Let me give you an example. 15-20 years ago, I used to get bit a lot while catching snakes and handling snakes. Over the years, I learned what triggers a response and what doesn't. I learned the body language that each species uses as it gets agitated. Subtle stuff...not just the typical reactions that you read about in books. And I learned how to respond accordingly. Now, I catch 150 snakes each year and seldom get bit. Are the snakes nicer than they were 15 years ago? No. I have learned how to recognize their body language and what their natural instincts are.

Just pay attention to your bull snake's movements and you can tell what sets him off and what doesn't. Respond accordingly. A "bad hair day" could simply be a cage that is too warm or a movement that you initially made that set him off into a defensive posture or he could be going into a shed. Over time, he will grow larger and feel less threatened and calm down a bit.

Good Luck! Jim really does have some nice Pituophis.

Michael

Hello, Michael.

You bring up some valid points and I DO tend to agree with you. Nonetheless, my previous bullsnake and I both had some sort of bond or connection together (even though it might not have been "emotional" on his part). I know for a fact that I was not imagining it nor am I going crazy. Anyway, the debate goes both ways. Here are 2 links regarding this issue:

http://petoftheday.com/talk/printthread.php?s=8612eae01745b0d505b7de3ee31f9102&threadid=67968

and

http://www.repticzone.com/forums/CornSnakes/messages/118850.html

I think this statement (quote) sums it up best for me regarding emotions in reptiles:

"The Hypothalamus is the part of the brain where most of our emotions come from. All reptiles have one, so they likely have feelings. Since they cannot talk, we don't know for sure, what feelings they have beyond the most basic ones.

The most basic emotions are fear, aggression, and pleasure. Reptiles have these feelings and express them. They avoid what they fear, attack what makes them angry, and seek out what is pleasurable.

If you create an environment that is comfortable and pleasant, and you do things to your pet that make it feel comfortable and pleased, then the reptile will "like"you in the sense that good things come from you, and therefore it wants to be with you.

In general, you will know quickly, if you do something your reptile does not like: it will try to get away or even bite.

Whether reptiles have more complex feelings, like "liking", is a hard question, and I would give a guarded "yes" for chelonians, but I don't know about others. In order to like someone, the animal has to distinguish between people and clearly prefer some over others. Chelonians do tell people apart, and they prefer some people over others. I noticed to my surprise, that there are people my friendly snake does not like for no reason I can make out.

One person relates that he has a very social turtle: When he reads a book on the floor, the turtle comes by and climbs on his back. He'll sit there for up to 15 minutes.

Make up your own mind, and you are probably right ..."

Thanks again for your viewpoint, Michael. It is greatly appreciated by me.

Take care,
Terry

Another big question is: If reptiles have emotions, are they conscious of them or do they merely reflexively respond to them?

(e.g. there is a debate about whether simple human emotion is triggered by a conscious appraisal of stimuli followed by an appropriate facial expression or whether encountering a stimulus triggers a relfex facial expression which then triggers the conscious emotion).

I have definitely noticed that my snake seems "accustomed" to my presence.

However, I ask myself two questions.

1. Am I anthropomorphizing my companion because I am human and that is what humans do? (e.g. I'm sure someone else has spontaneously attributed a facial expression to the back of a car).

2. Is my snake really "accustomed" to me in particular, or have I subconsciously adopted behaviors which do not provoke a negative reaction in her? (e.g. Has anyone read about the horse that could supposedly add numbers given to it. Turned out that it was picking up on the subconscious body language of its trainer and actually had no understanding of what it was doing.)

Either way, these questions bring up the issue of where to draw the line for self-awareness and the concept of conscious self-preserrvation and induviduality in animals.

If only I were a bullsnake for one day. The I would know what goes on inside the mind of these fascinating creatures! Hehehe!!!

Take care,
Terry

Those links you posted are just someone's thoughts (or wishful thinking), as you are posting yours here.
Post some links with scientific proof that snakes can show emotion/s TO HUMANS.

I have had snakes for about 25 years. And NEVER have had a snake show any "emotions" what so ever. As mentioned several times...reptiles "tolerate" humans - they "get used" to us.
In a sense its called "training".

In the time that we have them in our possession the grow accustomed to the everyday routine involved with them.
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Thanks
Jim
Home Grown Herps

Hello, Jim.

Perhaps this is not "scientific proof" enough. It has been proven that reptiles DO have a Hypothalamus. This means that reptiles ARE capable of showing at least basic emotions towards humans such as fear, aggression, and pleasure. Though saying that these creatures show affection is most likely going a little too far. However, I firmly believe that it IS possible for a person to have a bond with his pet snake because it has happened to me. Besides, NOBODY truly knows what goes on inside the mind of a reptile nor does he/she truly know what it is like to be a reptile.

By the way, I am enjoying this discussion with you.

Take care,
Terry

sure ...any person can have a bond with thier pets.
But snakes can not show affection to humans.
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Jim
Home Grown Herps

QUOTE OF THE WEEK;

"I know no one will prove me "wrong" - so I'm right!"
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Thanks
Jim
Home Grown Herps

It is not a matter of who is right or wrong in this situation. It is a matter of our individual perceptions. What holds true for you, might not hold true for me and what holds true for me, might not hold true for you. In other words, our realities are different. Reality is actually our perceptions of the world around us. Everyone's perceptions are different. Just because our realites are different does NOT mean that the other person is wrong. Let's just say that we are both right. LOL!!!

Take care,
Terry

I dont agree ....
Snakes CAN NOT show affection.
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Jim
Home Grown Herps

If everyone were to "see" things in the exact same way, then this world would be a very boring place to live in! Thank God we are all different. Hehehe!!!

Like I said... saying that snakes show affection is most likely going a little too far. Nonetheless, they ARE capable of showing the very basic emotions. This is enough to satisfy me.

Take care,
Terry

But how do or would you really know that? Snakes are different than animals such as dogs that people are touted to say that do show affection. Thing is, both are animals.
Perhaps they have and you may have never noticed it.....
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Genesis 1:1

I do believe everyone bring up some really good points and to me, each post has some valuable thoughts.

My opinion is that all animals may have the capacity to have feelings. Here is the thing though. We as humans can only guess that they either do or do not have feelings. The one reason only for that is that our snakes, dogs, cats, can not verbally tell us, " hey, I am hungry" or , " hey, I have had a really bad day." They tell us through other ways: body language, instinct, etc.

To say animals don't have feelings or emotions is just as much as a guess to say that they do.

Think about it: If animals can sense or have fear, that is an emotion. Then, it may be too farfetched to say, " oh, they don't have feelings."

I have an emotional bond with my two cats, which is clear as day. As far as snakes being able to bond, they may be an animal that relies more on instinct than others, but I would not totally rule out the capability of bonding with its' owner.
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Genesis 1:1

Amen to that, brother!

Take care,
Terry

Before this goes to far off track...

The comment was made that his snake showed him affection.
I say it cant be done.

I didn't say snakes don't have the capacity to have feelings, they may or may not. I would still like to see some scientific facts,
That way we wouldn't have to "guess". So rather than "guess" I am making my statement on the "facts" I have experienced over the 25 years that I have owned snakes of ALL sorts.

Dogs and cats can "verbally" let you know they are hungry.

And do you think its a bond with your cats, or can it be dependency? That if they got what they needed w/o you, there would be no bond what so ever.

Bond or no bond if a snake escaped from your home , odds are it would not come back. It may hang around for awhile, but will eventually wander off. If there was a bond it wouldn't leave. Even dogs that have been in a home for many years have ran away and never returned. Now factors may have prevented it from returning , but if there was a bond it shouldn't run off in the first place.
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Jim
Home Grown Herps

Either way, we are all "guessing" on the part of people (Nobody knows for sure since we are NOT reptiles!). We all judge things as "facts" based upon our personal experiences because this is what we've consistently experienced in our lives and this is what we know as true.

Take care,
Terry

In other words, this issue is moot.

Take care,
Terry

Thats a good idea !
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Jim
Home Grown Herps

If I may, I usually just sit back and enjoy these posts but this time I have some input to add. I don't know about the "Hypothalamus" in snakes but I do know about the Amygdalia that snakes do not have. The Amygdalia is the switch that higher life forms have that switches back and forth from "Fight or Flight" and the Maternal, Paternal responses of nurturing, feeling emotion, caring for others. Reptiles have really great fight or flight but cannot worry about how even another snake feels about them much less how we feel. When you reached down and your fingertips came into his field of action, he either "thought","I can take this guy." or he had no clear escape route and reacted in defense (Most Likely), or he smelled mouse and thought it was suppertime.If you want to think that the animal loves you or hates you or is indifferent, well that's OK but there is an absolute truth. Good luck with that Bullsnake, it will calm down. Of all the snakes I've dealt with I would have to say that Pituophis are far more aware of their surroundings than any other but I think that it has to do with being better informed for the "Fight or Flight". Sincerely, Raymond

Yes, snakes of the genus Pituophis DO seem to have an awareness of their surroundings which most other snakes DON'T have (perhaps with the exception of cobras, pythons, indigos, and cribos... I've heard). This is what I love about them so much! They are indeed very curious snakes that like to watch their keepers.

Take care,
Terry

The King cobra is a snake that DOES have the maternal instinct to build a nest and, also, guard the eggs until they hatch. As far as I know, no other snake does this. Also, crocodilian mothers have an especially strong maternal bond with their offspring for the first year or so of their lives. We can't disregard this.

Take care,
Terry

In addition to this, both sexes of king cobra actually form a pair bond and STAY TOGETHER guarding the eggs until they hatch. What's up with this? This is strong evidence that at least SOME reptiles can and do form bonds. Is it based on just mere instinct? Who knows? Lots of people say that the king cobra is an intelligent creature.

Take care,
Terry

Those instincts are to help insure survival. In some cases if the offspring hang around to long, they too will be eaten.
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Jim
Home Grown Herps

Oh yeah, definetely me and my cats have a bond. They come running to me and I pet them for 10 minutes each day I get home. They lick my face as we snuggle, lay on my lap, sleep with us, and run to us when scared, etc..

Snakes are without many physical characteristics to show the same amount or same emotions, like a dog or cat could show.

I do see what you are saying and don't totally disagree with your thoughts.

Hey, you ready for Daytona?

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Billy ....I'm ready ...just waiting for all the snakes to hatch.
I'm having a great year... so far (I dont want to jynx myself).
Those albino Speckled was a huge surprise !

This may be my last year doing Daytona as a vendor.
(it's way over rated)

I'll probably get banned for that HAHAHAHAHAHA
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Jim
Home Grown Herps

I am with you on this one, Billy. I don't totally disagree with Jim neither (I hope you are reading this post, Jim). I think we've all made some excellent points. It is rare that a discussion goes as smoothly as this one without any flame wars! LOL!!! I am glad that it went well for us without any hard feelings. Thanks for the discussion, guys! It was fun.

Take care,
Terry

No hard feelings here, everyone is entitled to thier opinion.
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Jim
Home Grown Herps

"I noticed to my surprise, that there are people my friendly snake does not like for no reason I can make out."

This is fascinating stuff. I think animals can sense fear or nervousness in the case of lower animals like reptiles and they dislike it. It makes THEM fearful.

In the case of dogs and higher animals this is also true, but I think animals like dogs are very often also good judges of character.

If my dogs don't like somebody for no apparent reason to me (i.e. they aren't obviously threatening or afraid of the dogs) I am suspicious of those people.

Hmmm...dogs can judge character?????

If this is true why do some guard dogs bark at me when I pass by them or go to a frineds house? I have no intentions of robbing anything or cuasing harm.

Maybe those are the ones with a bad judge of character !
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Jim
Home Grown Herps

REPTILES HAVE ABSOLUTLEY NO EMOTIONS!!! CATS RUN OFF AND DOGS BARK AT ANY DAMN THING THEY SEE,PLUS THEY EAT THEIR OWN CRAP!!! I'VE KEPT SNAKES FOR 15 YEARS AND WHEN A CAL KING OR A COBRA COMES TOWARDS THE GLASS WHEN YOU WALK BY THE CAGE ITS BECAUSE THEY ARE LOOKING FOR FOOD!!! KEVIN

LOL ...to funny and sooooo true !

At least snakes dont eat thier own crap ! ! ! !
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Jim
Home Grown Herps

At least snakes dont eat thier own crap ! ! ! !

Yea really,if that were the case the indigo snake market would plummet!!! LOL Kevin

What you say makes much sense.

But I think although snakes haven't changed over the years - YOU have.

I think that all animals have a basic fear of nervousness or fear in other animals, and that they can sense this fear better than we can. Fear is contagious among animals. If a person KNOWS the signals that certain animals use, and that person is fearless and confident and aware, and responds appropriately to those signals, the likelihood of bites diminishes substantially over time but never reaches zero - its an asymptotic curve.

Although snakes don't form emotional attachments to individuals, I do believe that most of them can come to recognize individuals and that many of them find being held by a confident gentle hand is enjoyable, while a nervous or fearful one is not. And they react appropriately.

I just wanted to put in my two cents here. I always get a weird feeling when I see people want to handle their snake into relaxation??? Break them if you will. Snakes will be nervous as babies and will grow out of that as they get bigger. It is that simple. I have heard people say that no matter how much they handled a snake it would not calm down. Hmmmm????

In my experience a snake responds to being in a room of activity with no interaction better than one that is handled. Think of it this way. A young snake sees movement and smells a human and then gets taken out of its cage and handled repeatedly. This makes for a nervous snake. Every time the snake sees movement it expects to be taken from its security and confused and no matter what it does it is not released.

On the other hand if a snake sees activity and smells humans but it is not harrased at all. It will not associate the activity and smell of humans with a bad expereance. As the snake get larger and more confident a bit of handeling won't bother it as much.

Anybody who has been fieldherping for any length of time has come across a snake that just sits still and does nothing. This is what a calm snake does. It does nothing because it feels secure in its camo. If you pick up that snake you shatter that feeling of security and you get the reaction that the snake sees fit for its level of agitation.

So what I am saying is that handleing a young snake that is scared of everything because it is food for everything when it is small is going to cause much unneeded stress. Where as a larger snake that is more confident in being to large to be a food item will have less stress caused by the interaction.

This is just my view of the world of snakes. I try to keep handleing to a minimum with young snakes and in my collection of over 100 snakes I only have 4 snakes that I need to worry about when I handle them. They are all kings and they all try to eat me but not one of my snakes are nervous and this includes tree boas, carpet pythons and green tree pythons when I kept them.

Later Jason