Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A few days ago, when the thread on exotic hots, which morphed into Burmese pythons & their existence in south Florida was going on, I e-mailed the FWCC & asked if they had any proof of P. m. bivittatus being established in the state. Below is the response I received today. ~~Greg~~

Although the presence of newborn pythons and unhealed umbilical scars was compelling, there was no direct evidence of Burmese breeding in Everglades National Park ... UNTIL... two weeks ago when park biologist Skip Snow found a large female brooding 46 eggs. When I last spoke with Skip, he had inspected half the eggs and found viable embryos and was set to check the remaining eggs.

So let the doubting Thomases know.

Scott Hardin
Exotic Species Coordinator

Very interesting Greg....

Thanks for the post.

Al
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Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

Skip Snow is performing the study within the park boundaries. For those who venture into the park for photographs or general recreation a Python Observation Data Sheet is available. It requests the following information when a python (or any other exotic I am sure) is observed:
What did you see?
When did you see it?
Where did you see it?
How big was it?
What was it doing?
How did it look?
Did you take any pictures?
What is your name and how can I get in touch with you?
Skip's contact information is Skip Snow, Wildlife Biologist, Everglades National Park, 40001 State Road 9336, Homestead, FL 33034

Observation Hotline (305)242-7827 or (305)815-2080

Unless we get a good freeze, the likelihood of many exotic species surviving in the 'glades (or out of them for that matter)is quite good. I recovered a 14" P. regius on Sunday from a backyard. Appeared in good health, if a bit thin, no external parasites. Have not had the opportunity to examine for internal parasites.

There should be no such thing as a $30.00 burmese python or any other properly maintained snake. The future is mandatory “chipping” every single snake in captivity. It is the only way. Before you say “impossible”, it is something we all need to get on the bandwagon and embrace and champion the cause. If we as keepers insist on it for every snake we produce, buy, sell and capture the thought of an unchipped snake takes on the aura of an unregistered firearm or car with fake papers. We need an American Sweaterbox Club A.S.C. equivalent to A.K.C. for dogs. Imagine every lineage documented. A registry to every import, hybrid, venomoid and field collected snake that makes up the official hobby. If you breed, you must have the equipment and registration cards and chips for every adult and neonate. Veterinarians will chip just like giving rabies shots. You must keep inventory and records of every transaction, death, escape, birth and parentage. Dogs without papers do not command the price of a registered dog. You will be compensated for the contribution. Prices will have to reflect the fact that these are cultured pearls. There will also be consequences when a snake registered to you ends up in somebody’s toilet. There should be no penalty for honestly reporting an escape of a registered snake. If it is found, it can be returned. Maybe some of us are not responsible, we should be weeded out. You will have to be responsible in your recordkeeping. You should be doing it anyway. If you resist you are unfit to represent yourself as a responsible (A.S.C.!) keeper. Why keep this hobby as some redneck fringe? That is the perception, and it is really unfair to the keepers that are more dedicated to this than many top dog breeders. What makes someone a top dog breeder? This is not scary Big Brother, it is elevating your hobby and business to legitimate and responsible refinement. I post this here because hot keepers should be the most educated, advanced and experienced keepers. And the fringe of the fringe!

The mere presence of AKC registration papers in no way vouches for the quality of dog you will receive, it only identifies its parentage. the AKC has done much to reduce the practical value of many of the breeds of working dogs that it has recognized, primarily because they are bred for confirmation only, to the detriment of other characteristics.

I guess that settles it ? I'm assuming that it wasn't one of Skip Snows Radio controlled specimens? While there was plenty of circumstantial type evidence, it's never a good idea to blindly except anything as fact until proven . And there's still many valid un answered questions.

My issue was not whether the burms were or weren't there, but with the hype and speculative impacts that may be used against the easiest target, private collectors and the industry.

Talk about killing giant lizards and pythons to save endangered species and it's easy to get both political ,financial and public support, even if it's just speculation. Say you want to stop a housing development that could bring hundreds of thousands of dollars or even millions into an area for the same reasons and no one listens, even if you can prove it a hundred times over.

Indiscriminate habitat destruction is far and away Florida's main environmental problem .It not only effects native wildlife but everybody's life. The giant land developers pump huge amounts cash into the state and tear it apart , massive industrial plants poison everything around them while funding political rallies . They say invasions are the number two threat but they receive 100 times the press and attention that the far and away number 1 threat does.

How bad the burms' impact in the Everglades may turn out be will probably not match the negative effect they have on the rest of the state. Some say burms were first sighted in the Glades tens years ago, and they're just now really starting to make the papers--I wonder how long it will be before scenes like the one in this pic. start making news. Ernie Eison

Indiscriminate habitat destruction is a much greater threat than burmese pythons in the glades, but to most media outlets it is not nearly as newsworthy. This (habitat destruction, not poor media coverage)has been the problem in south Florida since the middle 1800's and will continue to be a major problem for years to come. See "Losing it all to Sprawl", Belleville, University Press of Florida

Burmese are not even the most problematic species introduced into Florida. Commerce and international trade have introduced numerous pestilential species that result in huge economic impacts, threaten the health of native flora and fauna, change habitat, etc. Not to mention the practice of extinguishing all wildland fires in an area where much of our forested land was fire maintained habitat. Even in the Glades.

I have observed one burmese (adult) in the Glades within the park boundaries and one (adult) on the border of the park. Several were found in recovered from an agricultural field a few miles from the park entrance (I have no reason for the density with the possible exception of food availability). I have recovered numerous species from primarily suburban yards - common boa constricors, burmese pythons (largest 14 feet), ball pythons, (1) anaconda (12 feet. With one exception (an african rock python), these animals were not defensive when collected which indicates they were probably captive at some point. There is an identified problem of irresponsible pet owners, but this problem also exists for cat and dog owners. Being responsible for another living organism is inconvenient to many people.

There is a huge problem of perception about what constitutes danger. People are inordinately afraid of being killed and/or eaten by sharks and alligators, or bitten by a venomous snake. In the US they are much more likely to be killed in a car accident(approximately 38,000 to 40,000 annually per CDC)or even a dog (approximately 20 deaths per year, primarily 4 to 9 year olds again per the CDC). Admittedly, to most folks a large python is intimidating (most people find even the little snakes frightening regardless of species). Other than it being a banner year for alligator attacks (little rainfall so far this year), an alligator is many more times more likely to be killed by a person. Particularly now. Sharks attacks have been consistent at around 70 or so per year for the past several decades (G. Burgess, international shark attack file). This is dry information and not near alarming enough to attract the interest of the media.

This leads us to the next issue. The media distorts information and magnifies problems so that it grabs attention. It is not to provide you with accurate information so that an informed decision can be made. It is to attract your attention so that you will sit through a few commercials. If it was vitally important to your health and safety they would tell you immediately, not to wait until the 11:00 News. So it may be unwise to depend on the news to present the "facts".

Furthermore, elected officials are great at dealing with "threats" to their constituents, real or imagined. Many will do anything, no matter how ineffectual, to assuage the fears of voters. Nothing gets them votes like saving the potential voter from the burmese menace. If no burmese attacks take place the official can claim responsibility for no burmese attacks since the passing of his favored legislation.

I am now officially rambling.

94% of social statistics are made up on the spot.

The destruction of the land is an easier sell when they are eliminating these dangerous natural areas.
Since the citrus industry is infected with canker, those agricultural lands might better be used for housing (bigger tax base)

Aerial shot true invaders that don’t belong in everglades
http://www.skypic.com/everglades/2-9601.jpg

Aerial shot of park entrance agriculture, soon to be housing
http://www.skypic.com/everglades/7-9594.jpg

I consider these very obscene. I have actually hunted areas in these very pictures, they were awesome spots back in the day, probably still not too bad. I use to park in that little oval by the canal. Tell me these are not wetlands? There can be no doubt about the destruction of available habitat. If you are going to live in the everglades don't you have to accept the obvious? Is it alot better when fluffy is eaten by a bob cat instead?

Sorry I suck at this link stuff

you said it.
and thats the bottom line because Ernie Eison said sooo.

that is a very important picture.

PS IM sorrye you guys,I shouldve never posted that..is it me or is this turning into
the "Herpetology Conservation/Political Issues Forum"

Excellent point Ernie! The same thing happens here in NY.

MH

Uh, Thomas, uh, I mean Frank,
I guess this ends your diatribe on proof of Burmese "in situ" in Florida.
If proof from FWCC doesn't convince you, then you probably think that Oswald was part of a conspircacy! LOL!

Randal

Sorry to bust your bubble. I have allready acknowledged this proof on other forums.

It still boils down to accepting documentation (which I have) over rumors which you did.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

It was all basically I was asking for.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I suspect I will regret asking the question but curiosity is killing me:

Why is this "proof" acceptable? The timing is almost too perfect. Also, I thought the word of government biologists was suspect as their continued employment rests with perpetrating such myths as this. The latter point is not my idea but rather established below.

"So let the doubting Thomases know."
I have never seen such language in a scientific manuscript. It is almost like this email is responding to this thread.

In my original post at the beginning of this thread, I copied the e-mail sent to me in response to one I had sent to the FWCC. In it, I had asked if they had any proof of the establishment of bivittatus in south Florida. I mentioned that this was being discussed, & while I was of a mind that the animals were breeding down there, there are others who doubted it. Hence his comment about the "doubting Thomases".

~~Greg~~

Thanks Greg,

I realized almost immediately upon hitting "send" that my comment was inappropriate. You clearly stated that your inquiry was based on the comments here so any other response other than what you received would not be direct. Sorry for creating confusion.

I still wonder why the response is accepted though given the premise that "solid proof" is required and hearsay from gov't employees is suspect (established below).

Commendations for your direct and productive efforts in these matters Greg. While I remain skeptical, the information provided is troubling...

You are quite welcome, Bill. I was not as skeptical as some for a couple of reasons. I have removed escaped pythons of 3 varieties from places they were not wanted, like non-herper's yards, on literally dozens of occasions over the last twenty or more years. I could kind of see this coming. Second, my wife is employed by SFWMD & I have been privvy to some of what Skip Snow has been doing for a couple of years now. I must add, though, that all was from press releases, so I did not have access to any info that was not publicized.

I am as disappointed as the rest of you that these animals are established here, although it may turn out to be not as big a deal as some fear. I can remember thirty or so years ago being told by Game & Fish that we were in dire straits from the establishment of walking catfish. They're still here & we have survived. We even seem to be surviving the establishment of Plecostomus & the clown knife fish.

I have Basiliscus vittatus all over my area. They are, to my mind, fascinating critters. I also occasionally see things like Anolis equestris here. Again, neat lizards. True, the native Anolis has probably been displaced by sagrei in some areas, but they are still here in the wetter parts of their range.

Sorry if I rambled. ~~Greg~~

No, not at all. You make a good point when you note some introduced species do not ultimately pose the dire senario that is initially predicted. And sub-tropical Florida has alot of niches that other states lack, for better or worse. Actually, catching pythons in the local SoCal park would be kinda cool. Alas, we are pretty much limited to Med-flies...

I missed that part of the story where Noah put the animals back where he found them, two by two...Or did they all manage to do just fine where he threw open the doors? I think the solution to endangered species may just be relocating them to the most suitable habitat. Maybe Fiji Iguanas belong in Cuba? Maybe Indigos should occur in Australia? There is one theory that Noah began his boat ride somewhere near the Appalachicola area of Florida. Maybe those Burmese and cobras started out here?

An interesting story check out the link. Ernie Eison
The good guys ?