Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok. I'm planning on keeping copperheads and rattlesnakes later, in a few years. Right now I working on my techniques and I'm moving to Ventura County, California at the end of the summer. However I wanted to start to compile my Envenomation Protocol binder. So I have two questions.

-What do I need to have in this binder?
Emergency protocols, antivenom lists (what to use for what species) what phone numbers, etc

-Where can I obtain antivenin? I'm assuming I need a prescription correct?

Thanks so much in advance.
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My zoo
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1.1.0 Ball Pythons
1.3.0 Garter Snakes (2 have babies on the way)
0.0.1 Aggressive Bull Snake

Ummm, first things first. Califoria Law prohibits residents from keeping any hots but native (to CA) Crotalus...

Ok. That's definately nice to know. I haven't investigated the laws yet.

However, my question still stands. Where would I get the information that I will need to know? Envenomation protocols, antivenom (i'd love to have it. is that possible?) etc. Thanks
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My zoo
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1.1.0 Ball Pythons
1.3.0 Garter Snakes (2 have babies on the way)
0.0.1 Aggressive Bull Snake

Yes, well as to rest of your question(s), I must admit that I don't know. I live less than 10 minutes from Loma Linda Hospital (Venom ER & Dr. Sean Bush), so my protocal if tagged is, after securing the animal, to get my perforated butt to L.L. in the most expedient manner possible. In the past, I have kept polyvalient antivenom (Wyeth, I recall) but I obtained same thru a Doctor-Friend. Others on this Forum can doubtlessly be more helpful...

Bill is correct on this point...

Al
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Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

Can I extend these questions to snake bite protocols for us in the field?

Ian

Ian:

The current approach for NATIVE snake envenomation except Coral snake & Mohave Rattlesnakes where there is a diffence in venom composition and actions, is to simply get to the hospital ASAP via the Paramedics. The only medicines that you could possible need in the field is Epinephrine and Benadryl. Both of these are used to treat ALLERGIES & ANAPHALXIS brought on be some offending antigen, in this case snake venom.

Now specifically about the Mojave & Coral snakes, all of the above apply with the addition of a "Pressure bandage" as described in the following link. This is solely because of the venoms of these two species are NEUROTOXIC in nature and preventing the disemination of the venom throughtout the body has been demonstrated to prolong life till the proper A/V is available. Pressure banadages are NOT to be used for envenomation by other species native to the USA as they keep the venom in the bitten area increasing the likelyhood of severe local damage and high compartmet pressure requiring surgical intervention. Dr. Sean Bush has written an excellent paper on this topic and my answer is based on his findings in part.

Good Luck,

Al

Pressure Banadage Technique

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Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

That's pretty much what I thought... my own thoughts were that if you could put in some IV cathetors yourself to save the doctors some time. It would also be much easier to place before the swelling happens, and the blood pressure drops. Then I'm thinking; why stop at the cathetor? If you have the cathetor, why not start the IV fluids; which is standard for any toxicity. What do you think?

As for fighting analphylaxis; do you just carry a bee sting kit? (assuming it's something you get at walmart?) I'm super ignorant on this subject because we just don't have this stuff in Edmonton.

Thanks

Ian

"Pressure banadages are NOT to be used for envenomation by other species native to the USA as they keep the venom in the bitten area increasing the likelyhood of severe local damage and high compartmet pressure requiring surgical intervention."

I have to disagree. If I was to get bitten by ANY one of the neuro population canebrakes, I'd take my chances at wrapping the bite. Just my opinion, though.

Yes, I agree but not everybody knows about the Oceola Canes and their seriously neurotoxic venom. I was just making a general statement. SO some Yahoo doesn't pressure banadge an Atrox or Cottonmouth bite.

Ian:

That is WHY you call the Paramedics, so they can establish an IV and make sure you make it to the hospital ready to be treated.

Al
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Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

...I think you're overlooking the reason pressure bandages are used. It because most neurotoxic species are Elapids, i.e., short fangs and the venom travels through the lymphatic system. I decent sized canebrake is still going to deliver a deep injection, which a pressure bandage won't be effective against.

Pressure bandages are effective because of the bite apparatus, NOT because of the venom characteristics.

The BEST BITE PROTOCOL for native hots.......CARRY A CELL PHONE!!

MH

I prefer a girl over a cell phone......to suck out the venom. It doesn't work, but it sure does feel nice.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHH......they can also pick you up and carry you to bed after a late night of jungle partying OR just leave you laying face down on the porch! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

"DA$M IT, DA$M IT!"

email me about next weekend. I may be doing a bio blitz one of those days, so we'll hike whichever one the blitz isn't on.

HAAA! Leave me lying face first is more like it. That was the most comfortable wooden porch I've ever "slept" on. Do they have guinness at the pub?

A cell phone is good, but a set of car keys is better!