Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My pac-man frogs name is Cesar, and we think he is a male...but my fiance and i haven't heard him croak, and the throat is spotted, but not dark...but anyway, the reason i am writing is because every single set-up we try fails. Here is what we've tried so far:

1. sloped bed-a-beast and gravel: too moldy. he didn't like to burrow. never moved.
2. wet paper towels and moss: he flipped himself over a lot on this, but tended to be more alert and not so miserable. but again, molded after 4 days.
3. organic moss: couldn't move! his little legs would hop, but he would stay in the same place.
4. back to bed-a-beast, not sloped: he still has trouble moving.

Regardless of what substrate we use, he is constantly flipping himself over, and just has to lay there until my fiance and i walk into the room and flip him back over. We feel like we just can't get anything to work. Any suggestions we haven't tried? We are feeling a little hopeless about this.
Thanks,
Kahle.
p.s.....if anyone has any knowledge of toads, particularly European Green Toads, please contact me at kmr258@nyu.edu or view my post on the toads message board, if you have time. My toad penelope is having muscle spasms and i don't know how to help her.

Sounds like he’s had a calcium deficiency when he was little. Sometimes little frogs can grow up to not flip themselves over, if they get a lot of calcium, and can overcome their early age bone growth problem, but usually any damage they already have is permanent. Nothing really to worry about except just having to flip over the poor guy every now and then.

And I have a big problem with the mold. I already live in a very humid area! Best I can suggest is just the bed a beast (coconut husk) and do an inch or so layer, and just spoon out the mold as you see it grow...then when it gets bad, or as you see fit, then clean out the whole lot.

I suppose that you can reuse it, if you set it in a bucket and let it dry out completely, then rinse and soak it, and start over..but you can’t use any chemicals.
Really mold is an issue and I wish I knew the answer. Cleaning is easy because usually you can see very clearly when the froggy has gone potty and it’s easy to scoop out, but anyway...

The frog should learn to burrow soon, if it’s small. I have a little quarter sized albino, and it’s taken it a week with me to learn to burrow and now he/she only pokes his little eyes out *grin*
still misses the crickets a lot though!
Hope that helped!..?

Your pacman is suffering from metabolic bone disease. His bones are weak and he can't balance himself when he hops, so he flips over. You must take him to a reptile vet and get some liquid calcium to treat him as the powdered calcium is not as well absorbed. The same thing is probably going on with your toad.
This pacman may not recover the full use of his legs even with treatment, so it is best that you maintain him in the smallest container possible, and on damp paper towels only, with a half a small clay flowerpot as a shelter. He should not have too much room to move around, and the flowerpot will make him feel "buried" and he won't hop too much and flip himself over. Change the paper towels every other day, so they don't build up ammonia.
Keep him like this until he regains some strength in his legs; it is not good for him to be upside down all the time. I have kept frogs like this for many years and they continue to eat well and even though they are "disabled" they make fine pets.
It is possible your horned frog was one of the many that are showing up in the pet trade these days suffering from this kind of ailment; I believe that it is because captive bred horned frogs are being extremely overbred with no thought to replenishment of their genetic backgrounds. Like dogs that suffer hip problems, the overbreeding has produced a large group of inferior horned frogs from irresponsible breeders who care little for the animals and are just looking to make a fast buck.
It is a shame that you got stuck with one of these frogs, but with some modifictions to his cage and some vet care he will do just fine.

snip|"It is possible your horned frog was one of the many that are showing up in the pet trade these days suffering from this kind of ailment; I believe that it is because captive bred horned frogs are being extremely overbred with no thought to replenishment of their genetic backgrounds. Like dogs that "endsnip

I have significant doubts as to the "overbred" theory. I suspect that the problem is with the nutritional status of the froglets post-metamorphosis. This species grows so rapidly that if they are fed on a diet of invertebrates that are not properly supplemented then MBD in one form (for a primer on MBD types see http://www.tracyhicks.com/MBD.htm ) or another will result. IF there is sufficient D3 in the diet, calcium carbonate powder supplements are readily assimilated by the frogs through digestion. If there has been a deficinecy in D3 or the ratio of vitamin A to D3 has been greater than 10 to 1 then the liquid calcium can be readily absorbed to increase the circulating calcium levels but the D3 ratio in the diet of the frog still needs to be addressed.

It is very common for people to use the supplements too infrequently or when using a multipart supplement to use them incorrectly resulting in different forms of MBD or other nutritional deficiencies.

One of the best foods for small horned frogs are small live fish that are cold water, live bearers, brackish and/or marine species as these contain less cholesterol and more unsaturated fats. Pinks can be used as a food source but should still be dusted with a D3 supplement to prevent an improper A to D3 ratio.

In any case, if you think that the frog has a MBD issue then it needs to be taken to a vet.

Ed

Ed,
I agree that many of these frogs don't get sufficient diets, but my personal experiences with these frogs the past few years has borne out my hypothesis of overbreeding.
I have been using the same feeding protocols for the past 15 years, and I have watched how many of thr juvenile frogs have suffered MBD even though they were fed the exact same protocol as their previous bretheren. I can only atribute the changes to overbreeding as there was nothing in the way of husbandry that has changed on my end. My oldest frogs remain healthy.
Many of the newer frogs from the past three years or so have developed a number of bone related issues...everything from hip dysplasia to osteoporosis; issues that were not encountered in my earlier batches. I have also made visual observations at the various shows and see a number of juvenile ceratophrys with bowed legs, bowed mouths, and deformities that can only be attributed to overbreeding.
Plus I have noticed that the newer frogs are growing up undersized, and many are having personality issues. The changes I have encountered are not being seen as often in the albino morphs. I also have not seen a true ornata at a show in a long time. Most of the frogs appear to be some mismosh of ornata, cornuta, and cranwelli.
This is my personal experience, and also gleaned from a number of folks that belong to the ornata lists. I was told that most ceratophrys in the US come from a single source, so again that is why I am thinking that these issues are breeding related.