Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've only been around for a little while so when was the worst year for the ball python market? It seem to me 2006 has been the worst since I've been around.

2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 Which was it.
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billy jean king
BugBusters

What do you mean by worst?
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Ryan Farris

Honestly, it keeps getting better for me year after year. But then I'm not doing this to get rich. I do it for fun and for the love of the hobby. I love reading posts from people when they hatch their first egg! Totally cool!
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I agree. Seeing the excitment of someones clutch is an awsome moment in time.

Love what you keep.
Breed only what you love.
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James and Vickie Bryan
Bryan Reptiles
bryanreptiles.tripod.com
bryanreptiles@lycos.com
A good name is more desirable than riches
Proverbs 22:1

What makes you think the ball python market is getting worse?
If the truth be told, it's getting better and better. More and more hobbyists are getting into keeping and breeding balls. There are more morphs and combos each year. There are better and better oppunities to do wonderful things with these unique little pythons. What I see is the market getting BETTER AND BETTER. YES??? YES!!!
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Ron Billingsley
www.ronbillingsleyreptiles.com

I saw the "crash" and thought to myself "maybe I don't want to get into this hobby TOO much..."
I admit, I was in it for money at first, and prices dropping scared me. Even now I am seeing Pastels for cheaper than I locked in at...

but you know what?
With all the new things I've seen JUST THIS WEEK...I'm not worried.

Spider-pieds
The 1100 gram female crystal...

It's just getting started.
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-Man fears the beast in the Wolf because he does not understand the beast within himself.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? THE BALL PYTHON MARKET IS BIGGER AND HEALTHIER THAN EVER. JUST BECAUSE INDIVIDUAL MORPHS DROP IN PRICE DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE MARKET IS BAD. THAT IS JUST WHAT THEY DO. THAT IS SIMPLE ECONOMICS. IT IS TO BE EXPECTED THAT PRICES WILL DROP, BUT THE MARKET ITSELF IS DOING GREAT! MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE BECOMING INTERESTED IN THIS HOBBY EVERY DAY. NEW MORPHS ARE STILL BEING DISCOVERED IN AFRICA, AND NEW CROSSES ARE BEING PRODUCED EVERY COUPLE OF MONTHS. THERE ARE STILL HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OF CROSSES YET TO BE DONE. THE BALL MARKET IS HUGE AND IT IS EXTREMELY HEALTHY, AND WE HAVE ONLY BEGUN TO TOUCH THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG.

-ANDREW VARELA, SERPENTINE EXOTICS

I never put my .02 in on these threads.. but I am going to go out on a limb and tell you what I see.
There are 3 major problems in the Market as I see it..
1. People who only breed as a hobby and don't care how much money they make or loose, because it doesn't matter to them. Money should not be the driving force behind your hobby but it should be a serious consideration just out of respect for those who are depending on this as a first or second income.Profesionalism.
2. People who are only in it to get rich quick and don't have any emotional ties to their animals. They didn't realize how much blood, sweat and tears are involved in making a business like this work. They produce more animals than they can take care of and end up selling them cheap just to move them before Jo Blow sells his first.
3. People who keep complaining about how bad the market is..Yes we all know it's not at it's best right now. It will get better.

These things happen in any market, you need to learn to ride the waves and make it work for you. Yes it's not alway easy, but what in life worth anything is easy all the time.
I am in Ball Pythons because I love them. Would I like to make a lot of money doing what I love? sure who wouldn't? BUT You have to take the good times with the bad.
I really have faith that the BP market is going to be ok, just ride out the wave.
If I can continue producing quality Ball pythons and make enough money to care for them, add new morphs to my collection, and have some cash to add to my families income, Thats all I need. So far it's working. Every season is different, but so far it's still working.
I get my cake and eat it too, may not always be as big of a slice as I'd like but it's cake!

Sorry about the spelling errors.

Have a great season!!, and enjoy!!

Becky

Hi,
I just wanted to say , you've nailed it! I think # 3 is the biggest problem. And i have wanted to say it for a long time. I just knew i wouldnt be able to say it as polite as you =) People stop crying! THE MARKET IS FINE! Smaller breeders just need to quit whining and selling themselves short. Come on you guys, you paid for the animal fed it and were able to breed it! GIVE YOURSELVES some credit and stop trying to be the first person to dump it! And again (since this is important) stop crying on here about the market, that is what creates the doubt and slows everything down.

Again GREAT POST!

Thanks
Jon
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

I totaly agree as well. This is supposed to be fun people. If youre not haveing fun producing baby snakes (which takes serious patience)lol......then by all means.......get the heck out and stop ruining it for everyone else.

For something to be this fullfilling you gotta take the bad with the good. Dont just ride those waves. Surf those suckers and have a blast. Everyone takes a cut of their investment at some point. Not all of us can be fortunate enough to get loans or have someone invest mad amounts of dough to start close to the top.

And I know I dont have to tell all of you, its no secret that many of us hope to God we make some cash. Am I right? This can certainly be a lucrative hobby. But the most important thing to remember is that it is just that. A hobby...(for the most part)......because you are dealing with animals that need your attention. Pay attention and learn some biology. Herpeteculture is awsome and fun......and at times a pain....but if it wasnt it wouldnt be worth working for.!!

My first clutch of balls ever was this year.
Im hopeing for albinos. Het x PHet

Brendan
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Without INTEGRITY and HONESTY what else have you!
Brendan Saffron

I agree with what both of you said, everything is fine in the market, more people are getting into the hobby which isnt a bad thing. One of these days ill get into ball pythons right now im fine with my boas....just gotta get back home so I can get into some ball pythons.
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Brandon Nixon

Finally,
Its nice to see some people on here with some passion for what they do. A wise man once told me "You get what you put out" Meaning if you spout negative garbage all the time, thats what you will get. On the other hand , if you are postive (even when things are tough) thats what you will get. Im pretty much one of the most postive people i know (had to say that lol) But its true, i love my life, my job (breeding snakes and fishing) even when its tough. Hey i have my slow months but i (almost) never complain, i feel lucky to be able to breed snakes for a living, come on is that really even a job ( i tell people im retired, becuase to me this isnt work lol)? I get to go fishing and spend time with my fiance when ever i want, lifes perfect... EVEN WHEN ITS TOUGH.

So quit whining and be positive about the market and if most of us can do this YOU WILL SEE A CHANGE! (for the better of course =)

Hope this helps
Jon
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Thanks
Jon Dvoretz
Next World Exotics
www.nextworldexotics.com

The Hunters Guide to the Morphs
www.nextworldexotics.com/hg.htm

I agree with you Jon, im in the process of working out a deal for some het clowns

That would put me at

Boas
0.1 Ghost 2004
0.1 Sunglow 2005
0.1 Anery Het Albino 2004
0.1 Albino Stripe 2004
0.1 Het Coral Albino 2004
0.2 Anery Longicauda 2004

and the hopefull
1.0 Het Clown 2005
0.1 het clown 2006

Ill get more into it once I get back but plan on alot more, the Marines isnt so helpfull in maintaining a large collection of reptiles haha
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Brandon Nixon

1. People who only breed as a hobby and don't care how much money they make or loose, because it doesn't matter to them. Money should not be the driving force behind your hobby but it should be a serious consideration just out of respect for those who are depending on this as a first or second income.Profesionalism

This is the same lame comment heard over and over. Ball Pythons, BHP or even garter snakes etc. are only worth what someone will pay. PERIOD. If Joe blow can only get $900 for and albino BP that is the market, not $2500 because that is what MORPH WIZARD gets. Joe Blow will never sell that animal for $2500. People who breed for a hobby or for fun is why MORPH WIZARD is in business. I think that is too often forgottten.

Chris

I understand that prices lower themselfs as more animals are being produced, but so many people don't even try to market their animals at a resonable price. They look on KS and find the lowest price for the morph and drop their price by 25%-50% just to unload their animals. Why don't you at least try to help keep the market price up? Don't you want to get as much for your quality animals as possible? You probably wont be able to sell your animal the same day as your ad goes up, you may have to wait a week or two and do a lot of answering questions, sending pictures and turning down low ball offers. It's called marketing (work and time). Of corse the public doesn't want to pay any more than they have to for their animal, but if they really want the animal they will pay for it. Supply and demand works both ways. Show them why your animal is worth more than JO Blow, why should they invest their money in your animal?
And while I am on the subject ..
When did "wholesale prices" become a cheap price for a single animal to anyone who's looking to pay less than market value?
Wholesale prices use to be a lower price for purchasing several animals, such as a pet store would do...
Becky

I have to disagree. I hear the same bunk spewed from the mouths of the bigger breeders who have such high overhead that they have a hard time dealing with hobbiest prices.

I decided a year ago to get back into this hobby and immediately invested over $30,000 just to get started. I have spent another $20,000 since then. So, I have $50,000 invested into a hobby. Why? Because I can afford to do so. I am in this for the pure joy of raising and breeding these animals. It's something that is not work to me and a way in which I can spend time with my family.

So, when I produced a $30,000 litter my first year in, I decided to price my animals based upon what my costs were. I determine the prices not other breeders. I know what I need in order to ensure my costs are covered and to receive a nice return on my investment. Period.

My prices were about 40% less than other breeders. You would not believe (actually some of you probably would) the number of emails I received chastising me for my prices. How dare I do this to others??? Sorry, but screw that mentality. My animals = my prices. If I can produce them at a lower cost then you then why should my prices match yours? It is call supply and demand however it's also about keeping overhead down. It's about allowing others to enjoy some of God's most beautiful animals at prices they can afford. You all speak about the "enjoyment" of the hobby and of owning certain animals yet you are the first one's to gouge potential clients because that is what the market dictated. Where is your responsibility in helping others "enjoy" these animals?

It comes down to this, hobbiest will control the marketplace. Why? Because we can. Because we do not depend upon the sales of animals to determine our livelihood. While that may suck for the full-time breeders it is the reality in which you chose to participate.

Griz

Well, I am not going to argue with you, I wouldn't even know where to start. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
But.. I will say that your statement on controlling the market "because you can" is kind of sad. I may be missinterpreting how you ment for it to sound, but what I got from that statment was ...You are going to piss on other breeders and the BP market "because you can"?
Doesn't show much respect or appriciation for the BP market/hobby.
Becky

As you anticipated, you took my comment out of context. What I meant was simply this....

We "can" control the market because of the fact that we do. We do not have the overhead so therefore we are more inclined to set the prices. I would never consider "pissing" on the bigger breeders.

For that matter, it is quite the opposite. I approach NUMEROUS big breeders to sell them my offspring at prices 60% below normal. Do you know what I was told? They would give me 15% of the going rate for my offspring and nothing more. So, who is "pissing" on who?

I did my due dilligence so as to not affect the market and was slapped down. So, I will offer up my babies for what I believe is a fair price. How that affects you as a bigger breeder is entirely up to you.

Griz

Thanks for clarifying. I am in no way a "Big Breeder" I am just a little fish in a big pond. I doubt if hardly anyone knows of me unless they have done business with me in the past couple years.
Becky

Wow, 85% off list? These where visual morphs right? I'm sure the big breeders where still considering some risks and the need to make a profit to turn the animals but I'm still surprised at such a big difference between what they valued the animals at when considering buying and what they where listing them for. Was this last year or earlier than that? Maybe the new lower prices are closer to what they would consider the real value. For example, if I get lucky and produce pied females this year I might just e-mail a large breeder who posted here what he thought he would be willing to pay for such animals and see if he still values them at that. It was pretty close to what I would hope to sell them for with moderate advertising. I would consider even a 33-50% discount between what he is advertising (and perhaps even getting with better marketing) and what he is willing to buy them for to be acceptable. But an 85% discount? That makes me think the list prices where no where near what they really thought they could market them for.

This was just 2 months ago that the 15% of retail offers were being submitted to me. Also, you need to keep in mind that just because XYZ big name breeder advertises his offspring at $5000 does not mean he sold them for that. As a matter of fact, I know they typically do not. They will adjust their prices down substantially via email just not via the boards. This way the allusion that their animals are worth $5000 remains. It's what you call marketing 101.

Griz

That was the BEST response to this subject matter I have read yet. I agree 100% with your thinking. Contrary to what people think if Jo Blow is selling for $100.00 less than Ralph Davis most people will fork out the extra $100.00 to get his name. Thats why you see the average hobbyist with LIMITED room selling so cheap. Nice post Griz.
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The Crawl Space

Im sorry, thats buisness. How do you expect joe schmoe to compete with the likes of the NERD, BHB etc etc? If you were to buy a snake, and Joe Schmoe and NERD had the snake listed for the same price, where would you go?

And you can only go so far with trying to get someone to buy your snake because you say its worth more. People pay higher prices for piece of mind. The piece of mind comes not because the price of the animal is higher, but because of who they are buying it from. I would feel much more comfortable buying a $1000 pastel from NERD, then I would a $1000 pastel from Joe Schmoe. Why? Because of who they are.

Smaller breeders do what is right for/by them. They need to lower their cost to move their snakes and get people in. Its buisness, it has nothing to do with professionalism.

"I understand that prices lower themselfs as more animals are being produced, but so many people don't even try to market their animals at a resonable price. They look on KS and find the lowest price for the morph and drop their price by 25%-50% just to unload their animals. Why don't you at least try to help keep the market price up? Don't you want to get as much for your quality animals as possible? You probably wont be able to sell your animal the same day as your ad goes up, you may have to wait a week or two and do a lot of answering questions, sending pictures and turning down low ball offers. It's called marketing (work and time). Of corse the public doesn't want to pay any more than they have to for their animal, but if they really want the animal they will pay for it. Supply and demand works both ways. Show them why your animal is worth more than JO Blow, why should they invest their money in your animal?
And while I am on the subject ..
When did "wholesale prices" become a cheap price for a single animal to anyone who's looking to pay less than market value?
Wholesale prices use to be a lower price for purchasing several animals, such as a pet store would do...
Becky"
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Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design

Custom Acrylic GTP Cage!

I understand that one may feel more comfortable buying HETS from a Big Breeder, but would you really feel more comfortable buying a Pastel, or a Ghost, a visible morph? If so, why?

Dave

Would you feel more comfortable buying a car from a big dealership or a little rinky dinky place? What about a computer?

The reasoning behind what I said is because you know that said big breeder has a reputation. A good one. You know the animal you are going to get is a quality animal free of any problems and is going to be as advertised.

That is the piece of mind you have when you buy from someone like NERD.

Why would you want to buy an animal, for the same price, from someone else?
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Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design

Custom Acrylic GTP Cage!

YOU will probably NEVER be a BIG BREEDER, with and attitude like that, LOOK in this BUSINESS you have to make your own NAME for YOURSELF and cutting the prices up to 40% or larger off market value just sucks. What about the people that spent the same amount on an animals but they have higher overhead costs than they are screwed on selling the animals at say 20% below market because on the net people try and beat everyone elses prices, Its like this if someone post a albino ball for 2,000 then the next guy see that add and says, Ha ha ha I want to sell mine before the 2,000 dollar guy so I will post mine at 1,800.00 then someone else comes online and says I need to pay my rent this week so I gotta beat the 1800.00 price so mine will be sold at 1600.00 because I produced it and I need to come up with my 900.00 rent, That would leave me with 700.00 in play money that I can get me some cigs and a coke...LOL. That is just the way I see the net, people trying to beat other people's prices just for that QUICK sale. Well guess what, While everyone was looking for that QUICK sale with prices ranging from 1600 - 2000.00 I sold MY albino for 2,325.00 shipped and mine was only 300 grams the others posted were close in size, Just goes to show you you don't have to LOW ball everything JUST to SELL it quick. Hope everyone who reads this learns something. You just have to not be in a hurry to move the animals you produce. Bottom line. Thanks David
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WRONG... The only time I was WRONG is when I thought I was WRONG but I was really RIGHT.....LOL...LOL...LOL

Why should I, or any other small time breeder, or anyone for that matter give two craps about any big time breeder and what their overhead is?? Do you think I care what their rent is?

All I care about is mine, just like all they care about is theirs. Plain and simple. If I have a snake, and need to get it out quick I can, and will sell it for whatever reason I want. Maybe I have bills to pay and need a quick sale, maybe I just want to go buy some peaches. It doesn't matter.

Get over it, and get over yourself. The market is what it is. This is how the world works.
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Bearded Dragon Custom Cage Design

Custom Acrylic GTP Cage!

That has to be one of the most ignorant comments I have read. Take an economics class and then an ethics class and you might just learn something.

double or triple your initial investment after only a couple of years in business? Yes, I'm making some assumptions. You would need to buy some cb or ch sub-adults, feed the snakes and set up a decent incubator. You need to set a reasonable price and stick with it.

But come on... most businesses don't show a profit for, what, 5 years? So, you make double or triple your investment in 2 years, then each year after that your expenses are only food, electric and advertising (oh, and those new hets, lol!). So once you've paid off your initial investment, its almost all profit.

I'm still shocked that I can support my family working with beautiful animals and staying at home. And it will still be some years into the future before the morphs that I sell average under $1000. A thousand dollars for a snake! Can you believe that! Yes, I will happily take 1K for a snake. At that price, a small collection will still support my family.

New breeders need to know that prices will always fall because they follow the laws of supply and demand. Expect it. Buy a co-dom male and it will likely produce animals that are worth 1/2 to 1/3 of your purchased cost by the time you are hatching your babies. The drop is less extreme with recessives and with animals that have already leveled out, like pastels.

Know that not every 2 year-old female will lay eggs (most won't until they're 3).

Know that you will have to work your day job for at least a couple of years, and maybe a lot more, depending on your investment and how you manage it.

But yes, you can make a comfortable living working with beautiful animals. I laugh every day thinking about what I do. I love it! I love the animals and I love that I can support my family well.

If you were hoping to strike it rich overnight with little effort, you should have bought lottery tickets.

If you want to strike it rich (on many levels) through a well-planned project that will require time and energy contientiously applied over a span of years, then invest in ball pythons.

Also, if you get desperate to sell something because you need a new car, divorce, medical bills, etc. then call other breeders. Offer them your animals at wholesale so that they can make a profit selling at market value. Don't sell your animals wholesale on kingsnake, which is a retail market. See the difference?

And, finally, if you lack the dedication to succeed at this business, please contact me. I would be happy to buy your snakes!

Chris Morasky
Coils Select Serpents

I don't think there is a "worst year" , you have to keep in mind that each year more animals are produced which corrects the market value , that and the fact that they generally (unless they prove out to genetically alter more results than expected in the crosses) are cheaper to buy today than they were when they first came out.. It really isn't a problem as you still make a nice return on your investment , it all goes back to the old saying the higher the risk the higher the return. You can make good money just making Pastels with a $750 Pastel male but the guy who gambles with $20,000 on a hot new morph will do even better as long as his $20k animal lives to reproduce more babies like him/her, if not he just took a $20k hit in the you know where... People need to get out of the mindset of making quick money , this is a serious industry but not everyone will do well, and even those that do well have years that are not so well... I myself am looking at a horrible year for albinos, my hets just need the rest (that and the fact that some of my best breeders are down the road as I traded off some to get my Ivory male) next year will be better they will be rested and fat again.. Either way I'm in this for the long haul so whatever the market brings I will deal with it, I still say we are making very modest returns on these animals with percentages that most businesses only dream about... Anthony McCain-McCain's Reptiles...

im still savin for a spider male so im not complainin that the $s are dropping a bit, in fact it will let more people like me get into the morphs weve always wanted and eventually we will desire higher scale morphs thus adding to the high end market. also, i find it hard to complain about the market when theres snakes out there so far beyond my current means. just my opinion. also when discussing the reptile markets you should remember that the more market base (buyers/hobbyists) the better because reptiles are addicitve, like the old dorito commercials (bet you cant eat just one)and as somone mentioned earlier, the market in that respect has grown stronger every year

My .02 is that the people whining about the ball market are the ones with $$$ signs in their eyes looking to spend $2k on a male hatchling, breed the crap out of him the following year, and make a quick return on his buck. Ironically enough, these are the same people who are "at fault" for dramitically increasing the supply of animals on the market which brings the price to the low point that they are whining about.

I've got no problem spending 1500 for say, a spider, this year, and if the market price for spiders drops to say, $500, I can still make an awesome return on my initial investment in the years and years to come, all the while enjoying an awesome looking animals and its offspring. In other words, for a small hobbyist like me, market fluctuations don't mean a whole lot.

I'm somewhat concerned on what all of this means for the bigger breeders who've been around, built their livelihood on selling high end ball pythons, to now see the price drop dramatically. Will they be able to survive with the overhead that they have? I can make some of the same morphs they can with a $20/wk feeder bill.

Another idea that someone else expressed was an influx of new buyers when some of these morphs hit a lower price point. Let's face it- ball pythons are not corn snakes- ball pythons are much cooler animals IMO and come in much more appealing color mutations. Everyday hobbyists w/o the intention of breeder may not have much hesitation on spending 200 on a pastel for pet or 500 for a spider.

I guess time will tell!