Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My nile, Jefferson, has started sleeping in his water bowl.
He has several hides in his enclosure, but at about 3 am I got up for some water and stopped in to check on him and he was asleep in water bowl...is this normal or are we having issues?

its perfectly normal.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

Sleeping in the water bowl is not normal. It is a sign of one of two common problems. The first is, chronic dehydration, commonly caused from screen or perforated metal tops of tanks. These allow warm air to rise out of the cage carrying moisture with it. Its also a sign of excess heat. The monitor cannot cool off so it uses water. Water dehydrates causing it to be cooler in temperature then the rest of the cage.

consider, niles are water type monitors, they are found associated with wetlands, rivers, creeks, ponds, etc. So yes, they understand water and use it. But they do not normally sleep in water. They normally sleep in burrows. You could ask, why do they use burrows. Cheers

aaaaaaw, thanks Frank. i didnt know that. i guess i better stick to reading the post and gaining knowledge. lol.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

Hi Marshall, If you do not speak up, you will not get more to think about.

Consider, its not really about right or wrong. I do not have to be right. I have a good chance of being right in this case because of my experience. But still there could be other circumstances.

Thats why its so very hard to give advice over the internet. You or I, do not have access to the animal and the conditions its REALLY being kept at.

Why do you go to the doctor when your sick? Why not just ask over the internet? See what I mean.

So keep on particapating. Its all fun. Cheers

He has only done this once--it was about 4 in the morning...he's not overheated, or atleast I don't think he is. He has a basking area at 110 degrees, and a cooler end at 80-85 degrees. He drinks plenty and eats like a little pig. I just upgraded his water dish/ swimming pool--maybe he's just checking it out???

Please understand, drinking does not mean they are not being constantly dehydrated. Being exposed to dry conditions kills reptiles, they avoid dry conditions first and foremost.

You never answered my question below. Do you have a screen top. And next do you have a lite sitting on top that screen top. How about I bet you do. This is what causes extreme dehydration.

We work with a few turtle species, and we have to enclose their cages if we give them basking lites or they dehydrate and they are in water.

Heres another bet. I bet you have your monitor in an air conditioned room. The reason I am saying this is for the well being of your monitor. The reason I am mentioning these things is they are commonly done.

Not to put you on the spot, but lets see a pic of your cage? Its only for the good of your nile. Cheers

Hey Frank,
How does having a screen top with a light on top of it(or having air conditioning on) cause the animal to be dehydrated? You say this happens, but I am just curious as to why this happens? Does it have to do with airflow or what? Thanks

i believe what happens is the heat from the light rapidly rises out of the screen top bringing the humidity with it. if you cover most of the top the heat and humidity stays in the cage.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

First an air conditioner, An air conditioner is an air dryer. it removes the water from air. Have you have noticed that? It also means the room is relatively cool and with very dry air.

The lite on top the cage means you have to use a relatively high wattage to allow the basking temps that are considered normal(135F plus or minus) You will see many people using 150 to 250watt bulbs to heat a small cage. These high wattage bulbs are heating a lot of air. Air thats warmer then the surrounding air rises(hot air balloon) raising air, picks up moisture and takes it out of the cage, think drying paint. Dry air(from the air conditioner, picks up even more moisture. The reall effect is, you have not created a reptile cage, but a meat drying machine or as I wrote many many years ago, a jerky(beef) machine. Only in our cases, its a reptile jerky machine.

While the keeper looks at it as a good thing for their reptiles, nice hot spot, the reptile now must avoid becomes reptile jerky.

Reptiles are not designed to lose water thru their skin, their are designed to lose water their their urinary track. Not thru the skin. If reptiles are exposed to long periods of drying thru the skin, kidney disease and gout are common reflections of this.

But what about nature, nature allows reptiles choices. Nature is a giant moisture sink, the earth holds moisture(even deserts) But if a certain level of moisture is not available, they reptiles will not stay active and will seek moist areas. Like, deeper burrows, water to soak in, inside trees and termite mounds, etc. They will not come out until a suitable range of moisture is available. This is the live of a reptile in nature.

Of course this is only a little bit of all the reasons. Kinda why those of us that are successful have smaller lites, IN the cage and do not use such high wattages. This allows a lot less air movement, a lot more temperature range, and the cost of keeping is less to boot. In my book, this is at least a threefer. You cannot deny a threefer.

A threefer= something that benefits in at least three different ways. Oh and lower wattages do not burn reptiles, so its a fourfer or more. Cheers

A fourfer, ROTFLMAO!! All good points though. I think it's MUCH more difficult to recreate a natural, including all elements of, enviornment in capivity. Worth striving for, for the amimal's sake, but simple? I think not.

Quig

to think about in that way, "to recreate nature" is very silly and useless. Its kinda like attacking the hardest things first.

On the otherhand, its not that difficult when you approach from the other direction. That is, provide the simplist needs first. when I tell people I keep all species of monitors the same, it stems from this. I provide for their basic needs first. It does not mean I refuse to do more. It just turns out that if you provide their basic needs, they grow like weeds, breed like flys and live forever.
What are the basic needs, temp choices, not a temp. Humidity choices, not a humidity. Security, cracks, crevices, holes, etc. and food.

Where I feel most people fail is, they attempt to offer things we do not understand and negleck the basics. In my humble opinion, this is most pronounced with academics.

An example is, aboreal, everyone seems all concerned about that, yet, we do not ever offer cages over 8 feet tall, sirs, that is not aboreal, go outside, point up in a tree, thats aboreal. the two are not the same.

For instance, most ask what to do for a X species of monitor, When they should be asking, what to do for monitors. After you figure out what that is, then you can go to the next step and offer a species specific tool. Again, it seems the more educated a person is or thinks they are, they are concerned with the X,Y, and Z of the alphabet, when they concentrate on the A,B,C's Cheers

LOL, maybe I should have said 'worth striving for, maybe'. Unless you live where they live it's probably not possible, and likely not profitable. I do agree that the basics should be met first and foremost. Any tweakin', or fine tuning, can be done afterwards. Mind you, i've mentioned in here before that I don't own monitors. I just seems to me for any living thing to thrive certain necessities MUST be met. From there you can adjust as needed.

Quig

I've been going through this thread and now I'm confused. I think the fact that the nile was in its water bowl once was blown way out of proportion. The "beef jerky" dehydration theory seems to make sense, however how does one avoid this in an aquarium? I would venture to say 95% of people with herps in an aquarium have a screen top with lights on the screen. You're not going to start out that baby water monitor in an 8' x 4' x 6' custom built enclosure, he's going in an aquarium. They're all slowly cooking to death? I've always tended to avoid too much wattage on my herps. I would rather them feel the need to get closer to the heat than to cook in it without escape. You mentioned that your lights are of lower wattages and they're "in" in the aquarium. Please elaborate...

I start all our babies out in 10 gallon aquaria. I made custom tops out of 1/4 inch plexi. With a vent, a lite fixture that hangs in the cage and a hinged door. The material is a couple of five bucks. I made them 13 years ago and they are still working today. And hundreds upon hundreds of babie monitors were well started in them. Cheers

Interesting concept, I must say. Hypothetically speaking, let's say I didn't have access to plexiglass and I needed a way to improve a standard set up for a young monitor, using the basics(aquarium, screen top, light on screen top, water bowl). What would be a way to prevent the monitor from "cooking" and dehydrating in this set up? Perhaps glass covering the screen partially to keep in moisture? A humidifying add-on(small pump/waterfall/fogger)? I have several lizards(monitors and others) in basic herp set ups, however I've always avoided extremely high wattages. As you know, a light inside this standard set up wouldn't be feasible. How does one prevent the lizard from burning itself with the light inside the environment? Your advice is most appreciated, FR.

Matt

Fix the problem, its all that easy. If you had a big cut, would you make a system to take the blood and guide it away, so it would not bother you. Or would you stop the bleeding?

Stop the bleeding.

You can cover a screen lid, then mount the lite fixture inside. and put hinges on it because it will not slide anymore because of the lite fixture. On make a simple cheap lid. Its up to you.

Monitors are not frogs or salamanders. They do not want a wet area. They live in dry areas, even water monitors. Make a monitor cage, not a salamander cage. Cheers

And how does mounting the light inside the cage make any difference to the monitor's well being? My monitors climb and I could easily see them climbing onto and coming in contact with the light fixture. Are you saying that if you use the correct wattage that the monitor will not get burned? In an earlier post you mentioned that you raise monitors in 10 gallon aquariums and a light inside the aquarium. How does that work? A 10 gallon has very limited space and I can't really think of a monitor other than a savannah or a dwarf hatchling that would be okay in something that small...

I'll def. be moving him out of the central air conditioning area and work on the lighting. I never even thought about that honestly. THANKS A LOT!

No problem, I do understand that pet and reptile shops push, reptile tanks, screen lid, litefixture that sits on the top, UV bulb, some sort of mulch(horrible)bedding, and half log(a hide), a water bowl, AS A STARTER KIT. Don't forget the stick-on thermostat.

What they did not tell you is, that is the start of your monitors demise. I do think, that approach is why 99.99% of imported niles and savs, do not make it to the next year.

Monitors are easy to keep alive, healthy and breed. Just do not do the above. It really is that simple.

My wife is not a reptile person, she is a desert person(been around all sort of animal) Years ago, we would wonder and discuss why do all these monitor keepers have such problems. Particularly when I keep and breed the snot out of them, without problem. I was NOT a monitor person, now I do not claim to be one. Anyway, we came to the conclusion, more people would be successful, that is, achieve anything from healthy monitors to longlife and reproduction, IF THEY WERE NOT TOLD ANYTHING.

For instance, almost no savs are captive produced. There are something like 500,000 imported a year. I have heard more and less, that number is to indicate a LOT. If no advice was givin, I am positive more would be bred. And more would be healthy. Now consider five years of importing. Thats some really bad information they are giving. Cheers

Frank,
Whats the best substrate to use for monitors? (in my case a water)
You say that if humidity is correct then they should be more active and burrow less. I have a 100w bulb in my cage and he is out and about during the day but come early evening he is back to burrowing for the night. Is that because the air is too dry or is it normal?
Thanks.

AIR CONDITONER! I DID NOT EVEN THINK OF THAT. Why would that make him get in water though? Wouldn't he be a little chilly?
He did have a metal top on his cage when I had him in smaller tank, I just moved him from a 30 gal. to a 55. Maybe stress?

My opinion.
If nile monitors usually sleep in burrows, and this one doesn't have a burrow, maybe it is using water in place of a burrow. That would mean the cage isn'tnecesarrily any worse for the monitor than a cage in which the monitor burrows at night. But that all depends on whether the water is being used to escape heat or dehydration. If it is being used to escape dehydration, then the humidity is probably too low. If it is being used only to escape heat however, then it doesn't indicate anymore than a monitor using a burrow. Then the question is whether or not it is healthy for the monitor to sleep in water.
So basically, it is saying it is time to check the temps and humidity and offer something like a burrow.
Which brings me to the conclusion that FR is right. lol I just felt like typing this all because I am bored.
Those monitors, they sure seem to keep people on their toes.
lol

One reason monitors shelter in burrows to control water loss. So not having a burrow causes dehydration. Cheers

Frank, my ackie hasnt built a burrow to go in. could this mean my humidity is "right on" if it doesnt have to burrow a lot? i keep its dirt pretty moist.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie