Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, I'm building a custom cage for my soon to be larger than life red tail.... I have all of the hardware in mind and a parts list. Here's the delema (spelling??) I wanted to go with the following dimensions, 28" high x 28 " wide and 78" long... not a bad foot print ( 14.95 square feet of floor space, not too shabby by my research on proper sizes of enclosures ) Here's the thing, Melamine, and I planned on using 4 X 8's (@ 26.99 per sheet ) of the stuff, is going to leave me with a lot of scrap left over... My only other option thus far is to go with some pre-cut Melamine shelving sections ( 23 and 3/4" wide and 96" long @ 22.50 per sheet) My main concern is the the 23" wide stuff is going to make it too "skinny" and she's not going to have the floor space or the climbing room ( making a suspended jungle gym with in the enclosure ) THoughts comments concerns?? all ideas are more than welcome...

Why so big? Shop around on the net and you will find that 4 foot cages are the standard for keeping redtails. I never had a problem using the boaphile cages and housing a female salmon that was 6 - 61/2 feet long. Males are much smaller and do well in a 4 foot cage. Check with some of the breeders and I would bet that you would find that they use mostly 4 foot cages. This would really help reduce the amount of scrap, number of cuts, etc.
Just a suggestion.

Why so big... two reasons, one, this particular snakes mom and dad are huge snake, the mom's closr to 8 or 9 feet or so, and just my luck when I picked her out, I picked up a female... and two, just like you and I can live in a 400 square foot studio apartment living off of bologana and cheese the rest of your life but we choose not to, snakes on the other hand don't really have a say in the size of their cages... ok ok, trying not to be a sarcastic SOB here this AM.... I'm going to make it look like the columbian rain forrest inside the enclosure, faux rock wall in the back of it, a bunch of "vines" and "tree trunks" ( which I might add are going to be the hides... so I need the room to play around a bit, so not only does she get a big house, it's well decorated! lol

I wanted to go with the following dimensions, 28" high x 28 " wide and 78" long... Here's the thing, Melamine is going to leave me with a lot of scrap left over... My only other option thus far is to go with some pre-cut Melamine shelving sections...

I don't think that limiting the cage to just under 24" tall/deep will be that big of a deal for a large boa but I always say that you should build the cage to the size you want. In some cases I warn against large cages but I don't think what you suggest is unreasonable.

And you still have other options. One is to find a cabinet supply shop that can order melamine in 5x10 sheets and have then cut it for you. If you just took one sheet and had it cross cut at 78" that would leave you with a 42"x60" piece and a 78"x60" piece. The latter piece could be ripped into the panels for the top and bottom of your cage and you'd also have about a 4' strip leftover to make a lower substrate dam for the cage. The 42" panel could be cut into the sides for the cage. Leftover from that could be used to make vertical support members for the back and possibly one for the front.

You will would not have a solid back but you could just use a thin piece of shower/tile board for about $10. Who cares how much of that is leftover?

Another option is to build the cage from hollow core doors. This is what I would do. Just get three 80"x28" HC door blanks to make up the bottom, top, and back. For the sides maybe use nice plywood or some frames.

If you shop very carefully I think you could build the basic carcass of the cage for about $50. There will be an added expense for sealing the wood, however. I can go into this more if you like.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

thanks Chris, was hoping you'd comment on this one for me... I've already got the casters and some 2x4's sitting in the garage, going to make the "rolling chassis" later today, maybe....

Couple of comments:

I also forgot to mention all of the recent discussion of building two smaller cages from 5x5 russian baltic birch plywood and bolting them together. Very attractive and high quality wood. I might even prefer this over HC doors. A few guys have or are planning on building two, 60"x30"x30" cages that can be bolted together to make on 10 foot long cage. In your case you might consider just one half of this design.

I'd either use HC doors if you're really stuck on the original dimensions or the baltic birch ply if you think you can live with a 60" x 30" footprint.

I would map out both on the floor where the cage will go with masking tape or maybe even mock it up with some scrap cardboard. 60"x30"x30 is a pretty large cage for a boa. Maybe Jermey will chime in as I know he is planing a HC door cage for some monster female Boas he keeps. Always best to hear it from a fellow Boa keeper, not to mention someone with a lot of woodworking experience.

Also, given what you want from this cage I don't know if melamine is the best choice. It has decent moisture resistance but for all the decoration you want I'd prefer sealed wood.

Also, I would not build your rolling chassis just yet and I probably would not use 2x4". The are not dimensionally stable enough in my opinion.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Well Chris, there's a reason behind my madness in using the 2x4's... I've got a buddy of mine that has a bunch of the blue foam insulation stuff, low and behold, two inches thick, was going to use melamine/plywood ( you've got me rethinking a bit, which thinking is a good thing!! ) on the inside, and then either oak, birch, red wood ( I'm in Cali, price is up there but it looks amazing!! going to clear coat seal the wood on the outside, like the natural look ) So I was going to use the 2x4's as the skeleton, basically, I'm building this enclosure to code, maybe not 16 inches on center, but it's going to last a while!! I'll see if I can get some of the drawings I had my girlfriend draft up for me... ( kinda nice having an architech as a girlfriend sometimes!! )

I can understand where you are coming from, but also understand that to code you can have frameless particle board cabinets held together with nothing more than glue holding up counter tops made of marble, granite, and even concrete.

Likewise, I know of mobile bases made for 1000 lb. machinery made from 1/2" plywood.

Don't overthink this too much...
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

touche!! I like overthinking/overplanning, think of all the possibilities before I commit to one certain way... Funny that you mentioned the 1000 test wood stand, because I wanted to put a cabinet underneath the enclosure ( something seperate, not all one pice to make moving it easier.. ) happen to have an idea where to get those plans for that stand??

I sure don't. I just sort of build everything based on a picture I get in my head. I think any basic cabinet design will be more than sufficient to hold up the weight you'll have.

Lot's of information out there on that stuff...
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

I read threw the entire thread a few times to see exactly wear I should reply. Sometimes the end is not the best place and some times the middle is not it all depends. In this case I kind just picked the spot wear Chris gave me the shout out, thanks by the way.

It seams a lot of threads recently have to do with some inovated stuff I myself am working on. However with a full time job and a full time hobby sometimes full on cage construction misses out a bit. That and having a baby on the way with a grumpy wife never makes things easy.

Anyways Like Chris said I am actually working on a very large HC door cage setup for my Monster female and two smaller girls trying like hell to catch up. The idividual shelves themselves will be made of HC doors salvaged from my own home. Renovating isn't a bad thing! LOL

The main problem with HC door cages is when the sides are made with HC doors as well. And this only becomes a problem with the shelve ends and there attachment to the end piece (vertical). The Hollow nature doen't really give any holding for the shelve accept on the edge wear it has a solid piece the middle lacks the support.

To overcome this and another problem I am actually building the end pieces my self HC but made of Ply framed interior drid with a laminated skin on the interior face. Pictures would be great but alas I have none. This serves two purposes, one it gives me a frame work inwhich to bolt the shelves to. Second because I am useing full 80" doors the custom end pieces will allow easy means to disassembly the cage.

84"L by 80"H cage is really hard to move in and out of anywhere despite the width. I rarely move so once assembled the edges will be sealed with silicone and cleaned and re applyed if ever requiring movement. I also plan to use vinyl film ove the already finished doors to add another layer of protection against urates and humidity.

I choose this cage type over two cages bolted together length wise, because one I like the clean look a stack of cages gives you. Two the 2 60" cages bolted together is really not economical for me at this time. Most Redails do not achieve great sizes although my female is coming up on 10' she will be very comfortable in an 80" cage for awhile at least. It is a good idea just not for me at this time.

>>Also, I would not build your rolling chassis just yet and I probably would not use 2x4". The are not dimensionally stable enough in my opinion.

I totally agree dimensional lumber has one and one only place IMO. New home construction or extensive remodeling. My computer desk is made with a frame work of dimensional lumber not for strength but looks. Lets just say it matched my air mattress and cinderblock entertainment center motif I once had, LOL (don't act like you were never there)

I build everything useing strips of 3/4 ply i place of dimensional lumber. In fact I built a new lumber rack I have yet to take pics of out of ply alone. It currently has a good 300pds of lumber on it and is really strong. If it can be made with ply I think I have seen or done it all. My new Dog house is actually framed out using 2" wide 3/4 ply strips as lumber for the walls and ceiling joists (big dog house)

There are tons of ways to do what you want all you have to do is pick one.

Chris and I are here for ya all ya got to do is ask. Sorry pics will have to wait.

Good Luck
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

Thanks for the input and the 2" strip 3/4" ply idea!! Going to cut down the weight ten fold from my original design. as far as framing up the skeleton, how would you recommend using the strips? just like they were 2x4's in traditonal home construction??

>2x4's in traditonal home construction??

Exactly infact that is how my new Iguana cage is being constructed. With 2" expanded polysterene sandwiched between one sheet of tileboard and a sheet of FRP. Each panel is about 4' x 73"T little over 2" thick. The panels will be bolted together and sealed with silicone after the cage is assembled.

The dog house is quite literally built like a minature home with sole plate a double top cap and headers over doorways. No windows or firebreaks but you get the idea.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

so still in keeping with the "home building" spirit here, what would you recommend I skin the interior and exterior walls with?? I'd also like to insulate as well to help regulate the temps more accurately and what not... thoughts??

>>so still in keeping with the "home building" spirit here, what would you recommend I skin the interior and exterior walls with??

Depends on your taste;

FRP is pretty cheap really durable (Exspecially to scratching IE lizards)but not the best looking it also requires a solid surface to be glued to. In my case the foam core of the wall.

Tileboard is realitvly durable (not to scratching) good looks and low low cost.

PVCX is really durable good looks but high priced

Thats just a few for the interior.

Exterior could be skinned with anything from lauen board to ply to birch or oak skin.

>>I'd also like to insulate as well to help regulate the temps more accurately and what not... thoughts??

Ulitimatly foil faced expanded polysterene would be the best. The foil face will reflect radient heat and the foam will create a well insulated solid core. I can only find foil faced poly in 1" thickness so I am going to use straight 2" poly I'll deal with the radient heat loss.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

I just quickly skimmed the exchange so I appologize if this has already been covered.

I like the design that Jeremy is suggesting. Quite a bit, actually. But do understand that if you go with your original dimensions you will be back to wasting a lot of material, especially since you'll need interior and exterior skins (exterior skins at least for the visible exterior parts of the cage). Personally, I would skin all of the exterior so the flamable insulation is covered. I only mention this because you originally expressed a concern with having a lot of leftover melamine which is already pretty cheap.

So you still might consider tweaking the dimenions a bit to best utilize material.

That's one of the things I like about HC doors -- even if you pay full price you really can't build them yourself cheaper.

But then you don't get the cusomability of Jermey's design not to mention the insulative properties.

Tough call. Honestly, I could see going a variety of ways with this project.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Ok, just so I'm not talking to myself in my room, I wanted to get this thought out and into the open, if my quick math in my head is correct, using the "2x4x 16" on center" standard for building walls one could suppose that you could use 3/4" x 2" studs at every 7 or so inches right?? Am I just nuking the hell out of this or what?? lol thanks Chris and Jeremy by the way, you guys have been a big help in the brainstorm, or in my case, brain hurricane!!

Had a busy weekend and just now checked and found this humongous thread, great discussion BTW. Have a few thoughts:

Assuming your 28 x 28 x 78 dims are outside dimensions (OD), do you realise that using 2" x 3/4 inch studs more than half of the volume your cage takes up will be lost/used in wall volume?

OD = 28 x 28 x 78 = 61,152 cubic inches

ID = 20 x 20 x 70 = 28,000 cubic inches

and that does NOT include wall skin thickness!!!!!!!!

I've built a lot of wood cages and even my own kitchen and I find that 3/4" oak plywood makes a VERY strong good looking building material. If you reduced your OD to 23 3/4 you could make top/back/bottom/sides out of two sheets, OR you could make the floor deeper, and still use only two sheets by reducing height. You would still need to make a front face frame, I prefer solid for that. Even with the 23 3/4 dims and still 78 wide:

OD = 23 3/4 x 23 3/4 x 78 = 43,997 cubic inches (that's 72% of your original dimensions)

ID = 22 1/4 x 22 1/4 x 76 1/2 = 37,872 cubic inches (that's 135% of your planned ID with stud construction)

Not sure of your needs for thermal insulation, if kept in a standard home, the plywood should be more than adequate to hold in heat.

As for strength, your standard cabinet construction has the vertical mambers that support the top attached (typically with nails/glue) to the base shelf which rests on top of a toe kick frame work. So, that nail/glue joint is enough to support not only the weight of the cabinet but also the weight of Granite or Tile (I think tile may actually be heavier with the thick layer of stuff underneath it.

A old cage stack, made from oak plywood, over 10 years in use and still going strong.

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Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
2.7 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (adult breeders)
2.5 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2004)
4.8 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2005)
2.1 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI Albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Salmon / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Salmon (possible super)
1.0 BCI Albino het stripe
1.0 BCI Salmon
0.1 BCI Ghost
0.1 BCI Super salmon, possible jungle
1.0 BCI Salmon, possible jungle
0.1 BCI Super Ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Thanks Dave,
That actuallly brings up a good point;

One this type of cage I am useing is very large and I only recommend it as so. Like Dave said it does waste a lot of space in wall volume however, the cage I am building is 80"H x 96"D x 66"W so the wall is justified.

Another point was the insulation, I am insulating these two cages for two reasons one I want to conserve radient energy as much as possible. These cages are for my Large Iguanas and they need a great deal of heat as well as humidity. Also this cage will be located outside my repile room for obvious reasons. Therefore the the cage needs its own enviromental control, being placed in a room that sees the low 60's in winter it needs insulation.

That being said there are ways around this. For example in my HC door cage I am working on the back of the enclosure will be tileboard and nothing else. No framing no insulation just 1/8 tilboard. Also the side pieces I am customizing will be solely for the purpose of securing the shelf not for size. None of it will be insulated beyonf the air filled interior of each door and side piece. I will most likly line the back of the enclosure with reflectix to save on wasted radient energy.

Just remember when you build a cage its all about forces. Not from the animal but from nature itself. Gravity pulls down thats why small material or thin sheet goods sag, hence is why thick front litter dams are found on really wide cages.

Beyond sheet goods themselves I only believe a framework of support is required when using thin sheet goods 3/8 or less. If you are really good 3/8 can even be used without a supporting framework as long as its done properly.

Also check cabinent suppliers, they can get sheet goods in different sizes, example melamine in 49"x97" or 60"x120"

Good Luck
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

Guys, please keep in mind, that I'm on here asking for opinions and trust me I'm taking everything that's said in stride and using every bit of information that you guys are throwing at me. I really do appreciate the inputs. I take some pics as I start to build the beast...

to give advice from our individual viewpoints. It's up to you to decide what if any of that advice/ideas work for you.

Keep us posted!!!!
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Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
2.7 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (adult breeders)
2.5 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2004)
4.8 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2005)
2.1 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI Albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Salmon / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Salmon (possible super)
1.0 BCI Albino het stripe
1.0 BCI Salmon
0.1 BCI Ghost
0.1 BCI Super salmon, possible jungle
1.0 BCI Salmon, possible jungle
0.1 BCI Super Ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>"2x4x 16" on center" standard for building walls one could suppose that you could use 3/4" x 2" studs at every 7 or so inches right??

I actual throw the "code" out the window, I space the ply "studs" every 11 inchs I think its easier to cut the poly at and whole number not to mention 7" is overkill.

>>Am I just nuking the hell out of this or what??

I actually have no idea what you mean by that statement.

Good Luck
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

A few things actually..

#1 Using a frame of 2x2s or 2x4s or other dimensional lumber is a big NO-NO for a cage. You'll be sorry if you do. Yeah, you can use pieces as nailers and such, but don't make a frame. Ripped plywood as mention makes nice nailers and such without the bending and shrinking/expanding of 2x4s.

#2 I saw a boa cage recently that was only 4ft wide and 22" deep but about 66" high with a shelf in it. The boa was on the shelf basking under a heat lamp. Essentially, the shelf makes a 4ft cage very roomy for the boa.

The nice thing about the tall cage? You only have to "skin" the bottom and about 6inches up the sides. That is alot less floor area to skin. Use PVCx available at sign shops. It works amazingly and you can seal imperfect edges with epoxy sealant to make an almost water-proof bottom. The rest of the cage can be painted or sealed with low-vapor water-based poly if you want.