Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am having problems with a new Melamine Rack I have constructed. I built a 6 shelft high 5 tub wide (Sterlite 1860) rack for my ball pythons. The way I built it was I built the bottom foundation using the Melamine and 3 2X4s running lengthwise with 8 heavy duty wheels. Then I cut the sides and put the tubs on the bottom and just started screwing shelves on top of the rack and so on. For some reason I had not read anything about needing to put spacers in between the rack and the tubs so now all the tubs are fitting differently some loose some way to tight and some of the dividers that were all pre cut arent lining up (as seen in the photo)

What is the easiest way to correct this? I have already spent alot of money and like using the Melamine for the sides since I think it looks nicer than the open way and am guessing I need to buy another piece to cut the sides and then hopefully find the right way of doing this so the tubs fit flush? Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

What is the easiest way to correct this? I have already spent alot of money and like using the Melamine for the sides since I think it looks nicer than the open way and am guessing I need to buy another piece to cut the sides

Easiest is a tough call. Is there any glue or other type of adhesive used in this rack? I would be inclined to take it apart and start over.

Let us know if you used adhesive and we can go from there.

I would plan on ditching the 2x4 base. I would also plan on cutting new spacers to the correct height.

Strongly consider building a few racks that hold fewer boxes rather than the one large rack. That design has some flaws that are very difficult to overcome.
-----
Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Just a couple of suggestions. If I had built the rack, this is where I would start.
I don't believe you have a problem with the sides. It's possibly the base and each shelf. You didn't say if you checked each shelf to see if it was level nor did you say if you cut all the spacers to the same size.
If you attached the 2x4's to the bottom shelf by the 4 inch side they will bow. The base should have been built like a housing frame and attached to the bottom shelf on the 2 inch edge. This will be much more rigid and prevent the bottom shelf from bowing. If the first shelf is bowing, the others will also bow.

Next I would cut all the spacers the same, box height plus 3/16's. Check your boxes also. Trim off any excess plastic from the edges. Warped boxes should be placed on a flat surface with hot water in them. That usually helps level them out.

Next I would rebuild it starting from the bottom shelf up. That bottom should be really solid. Add in the spacers, boxes, and just place the next shelf into position. Check each slot for fit. If one is tight, try another box. If it is still tight, check the spacer. Is it the right size? You can shim each spacer with washers if needed.
Just keep building from the bottom up and check each shelf, spacers, boxes, etc. as you go.
Not the quickest way but it should resolve the problem.
Best of luck

I think (assume) his trouble with the sides is that once he builds each level with a 3/16" gap the sides won't be tall enough. That will add 1.125" to the height of the rack.

To the OP:

I have given this some more thought. I would lose one level per rack to account for this height. This will give you about 5" on the bottom of the rack to build a grid system from melamine. I would make it a torsion box and then attach the casters to that.

I only suggest this is making this rack into two or three smaller racks is out of the question.
-----
Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

John thanks for the suggestions. Im already in over 1k with this with heat tubs etc so making a smaller rack or ditching the project like chris suggests really does nothing for me since i have animals that NEED this space thats why i jumped into it so fast. What should I use for the spacers to make the 3/16s gap for each box? Do you have any examples of how i should build the base it seems a little confusing to me.

Chris,
Losing one level would be ok with me as it would still give me 25 slots. What is a torsion box and do you have an pics of how i should build the grid system?

To the OP:

I have given this some more thought. I would lose one level per rack to account for this height. This will give you about 5" on the bottom of the rack to build a grid system from melamine. I would make it a torsion box and then attach the casters to that.

I only suggest this is making this rack into two or three smaller racks is out of the question.

First off, like Chris and John said, the bottom needs to be rock solid to support the weight without sagging. A simple torsion box will give you more than enough strength. Using two shelves and some scraps, make a bunch of pieces a few inches wide. Make a gridwork of these to sandwich between the two shelves. Kind of like a 4.5 inch thich hollow core door. Trim out the front and back with some more scraps. Now you have a torsion box with open ends. Use this as your first shelf.

To space the shelves, determine the exact height you need, as suggested typical tub height plus 3/16" Cut your spacers to that dimension and simply use the spacers to set the height of the next shelf.
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)
2.7 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (adult breeders)
2.5 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2004)
4.8 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (sub-adult from 2005)
2.1 Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 Het for Hypomelanistic BRB
0.1 BCI "Elvira" normal from 1989
1.0 BCI Albino / het-anery
0.1 BCI Salmon / het-albino
0.1 BCI Anery / het-albino
0.1 BCI Salmon (possible super)
1.0 BCI Albino het stripe
1.0 BCI Salmon
0.1 BCI Ghost
0.1 BCI Super salmon, possible jungle
1.0 BCI Salmon, possible jungle
0.1 BCI Super Ghost

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

First, let me recommend a way to set the space between each level. I would cut spacers that same depth as your shelves and cut to the height of the box plus 1/8" or 3/16" -- I prefer the latter. You can check the height like this:

You can use one of these spacers to attach the shelves to the sides like this:

As you build each level you'll want to add the spacers to the middle to divide the sections of your rack and to add the support. By doing it one level at a time you can glue/screw each spacer in for maximum support.

A torsion box is a grid system that is skinned on each side. It is also sometimes called stressed skin construction.

I would also recommend a solid back for this rack if you don't already have one. I would use a 1/2" or 3/4" back that fits perfectly between the sides and the top and bottom. Because of this you'll need to rip the middle shelves down by 1/2" or 3/4". You could even rabbet it into the back.

What type of back does this rack have now?

I have no doubt that this rack can be made strong and rigid enough and still function and be secure. But the amount of material and work it may require won't be much different than buying material to make five individual racks. I say that assuming you can salvage most of the melamine already used on this rack.

What sized boxes are those? Are they the sterilite 41 qt. boxes?

-----
Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Guys thanks for the fast responses it is making this alot easier. Right now I dont have a back on it. What does the back of the rack need to be made out of?
When you guys are saying spacers do you mean the melamine supports i have in there now?

5 Individual racks would be ok to it just seems like since I already have the heat tape cut for this size I think I would rather stick to this and just trim off a level. Does anyone have any pics of how to make a torsion box or stressed skin construction i still cant grasp the concept of how it works and how the wheels will go on.

First, let me recommend a way to set the space between each level. I would cut spacers that same depth as your shelves and cut to the height of the box plus 1/8" or 3/16" -- I prefer the latter. You can check the height like this:

You can use one of these spacers to attach the shelves to the sides like this:

As you build each level you'll want to add the spacers to the middle to divide the sections of your rack and to add the support. By doing it one level at a time you can glue/screw each spacer in for maximum support.

A torsion box is a grid system that is skinned on each side. It is also sometimes called stressed skin construction.

I would also recommend a solid back for this rack if you don't already have one. I would use a 1/2" or 3/4" back that fits perfectly between the sides and the top and bottom. Because of this you'll need to rip the middle shelves down by 1/2" or 3/4". You could even rabbet it into the back.

What type of back does this rack have now?

I have no doubt that this rack can be made strong and rigid enough and still function and be secure. But the amount of material and work it may require won't be much different than buying material to make five individual racks. I say that assuming you can salvage most of the melamine already used on this rack.

What sized boxes are those? Are they the sterilite 41 qt. boxes?

Given the problems you are having, I would make the back from 3/4" melamine. Make darn sure it is cut perfectly square.

I think Dave described the torsion box so I won't go into that anymore. Like the solid back, I only recommend it due to the problems you are having and the tight tolerances required by a rack.
-----
Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

Found this on the web:

Shows the internal gridwork of a torsion box.
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.14 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Just follow this and make whatever dimensional changes you need.

www.diynetwork.com/diy/shows_wwk/episode/0,2046,DIY_14350_26946,00.html
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.14 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Thanks for the links makes alot more sense now. Alot of people on here seem to expect you to know everything but if we did there would be no purpose for this forum!
So should i use glue or screws for this torsion box and then do i screw the wheels on under it? When should I put the back on after I have put the rack all together?

between over-simplifying and under-simplifying.
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.14 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I have all the tools necessary so, if it were me, I'd pocket hole the torsion box members to the shelf, than would have no screw heads/holes on the shelf, then screw the underside of the box, who cares about the heads/holes there. And would use glue as well.

A pocket hole is a special angled hole that allows uou to use a screw to attach the pieces together without leaving a screw head showing...on the outside. Kreg makes a nice jig for this.

If you don't have access to this attachamnt method, the definately still glue/screw it together, just make sure you pre-drill all the holes and recess the heads.

Like Chris said, make the shelves 3/4" shallower than the sides and do the same with the torsion box, then make the back fit top to bottom on the whole rack. Back does go on last.

I'd be tempted to make a seperate wheeled base, kind of like a oversized moving dolly. If you attach the wheels to the torsion box, how would you remove if necessary...bearing failure, wheel cracked ..... I have made similar bases for all my cage stacks.

So should i use glue or screws for this torsion box and then do i screw the wheels on under it? When should I put the back on after I have put the rack all together?
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.14 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I would never use pocket holes for a torsion box, can you imagine the time it would take!

Glue and brads work best, but then again I do have a pneumatic nailer.

Sorry had to add that in however, I think pocket holes are the ideal attachment for the shelves to the end pieces like you rack are currently built.
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

for attaching the top. Time is easy, I hate holes in the shelves...looks tacky.

I built my whole kitchen with a variety of joinery so there would be NO noticeable holes anywhere. Used Buscuits. dowels and pocket holes where the side with the pocket hole would never be seen. Even used my brad nailer where the holes would also be hidden.
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.14 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>for attaching the top. Time is easy, I hate holes in the shelves...looks tacky.

I thought you meant for the whole torsion box, I just thought maybe you had a lot of spare time. LOL, cause if ya did I was going to ask if I could borrow some.

I agree Biscuits and Pocket holes have a defenite place in the woodshop. Dowels do to but I don't perfer them.

I myself am trying to get my hands on a 2 n 1 stapler/nailer 23g to offset the use of my current 16g. I find certain projects need the smaller brads and staples.
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

4 pneumatic brad nailers, from OMG big Senco to tiny 23 gauge....shoots mechanical pencil lead size brads, almost no hole at all. And two pneumatic staplers to boot. Narrow and wide crown. They are a LOT of fun and no faster method for attaching wood together IMO.

I use what I can/need to get the construction results I want, depends on what I'm building.... always reminds me of a saying I use to justify lesser assembly/construction methods, "I/m not exactly building a piano"!
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.14 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Alot of people on here seem to expect you to know everything but if we did there would be no purpose for this forum

I hope I did not come across that way. A torsion box is one of those things where I could write a detailed explanation and it might not make sense to some but make perfect sense to others. I hand planned to look up that DIY link that Dave posted when I got home from work.

Remember, most of the strength of a torsion box comes from having skins on both sides of the ribbed interal section. The taller you can make the ribs the better. In your case use what your project gives you, don't go out of you way to make the torsion box taller.

Also, Bighurt and I have discussed that DIY link quite a bit. He and I both feel the importance placed on the perfectly flat starting point is not so important. It seems to use that if your ribs are ripped perfectly flat and then you skin is screwed and glued to that one should end up with a flat surface.

But then again, who am I to disagree with David Marks (he is the guru of woodworking gurus).

Maybe RainbowsRus will have a comment on that part of the DIY link he provided.
-----
Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

>>Also, Bighurt and I have discussed that DIY link quite a bit. He and I both feel the importance placed on the perfectly flat starting point is not so important. It seems to use that if your ribs are ripped perfectly flat and then you skin is screwed and glued to that one should end up with a flat surface.

Not to say Marks is wrong, he is a guru, but he puts a lot of empthasis on the already flat work surface. I think I know why, while building another project two weekends ago I realized that part of my assembly would be a lot esier on a true flat surface. I began thinking about why Marks wants the flat torsion box. Simple it makes assembling progects easier due to items placed on them remaining true straight and flush. For example joints.

I began thinking why is the final product need to be so critical and what effect does the torsion box add. Its all about clean, a nice clean flush joint looks way better and requires less sanding and fill. What does the torsion box add, it makes it that much easier to achieve.

So if the final project needs a flat surface to speed up assembly and true the final piece. Why would assembling a piece of work that had a critical flat true surface be any different. It isn't, thats why they recommend a flat surface. Its like which came first the chicken or the egg. You need the chicken to make the egg but the chicken came from th egg. Same goes with the table you need a flat surface to make the table but you need the table to provide a flat surface, of course the table being the final use of the torsion box.

Thats why they recommend it so much, not that you need it, but having an already flat surface makes it that much easier to assembly a new flat surface. Ideally you need a torsion box to assembly a torsion box, but than if you had one you wouldn't need one.

Its all part of the cirle we live, thanks for letting me ramble.

Happy 666, LOL
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

Awesome well I will keep everyone updated with how this torsion box comes along. Im sure it will take some trial and error since im new to woodworking but hopefully it will all work out.

One last question though while im building this rack could I buy a pre made shelving unit from Leows and just put some heat tape under it for my hatchlings until im done? The tubs are already drilled so It should be fine just put the tops on and they would be fine correct? Does anyone know which store would have a model best suited for the 12 qt Sterilites?

I wholeheartedly agree, the diy I posted was for making a perfectly flat torsion box, for your rack, perfectly flat is not critical, mostly flat wound be good but what Chris may have missed is twisted would not be good. By flat they mean like a dollar bill layed on a table. what you need to be careful of is to not twist the skins/ribs wile assembling. Like that same dallar bill where one corner is lifted.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.14 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I don't think I explained myself very well.

I'm questioning the importance of having the initial work surface perfectly flat in order to build a perfectly flat TB. I am not questioning the need for a flat TB.

For a TB to end up perfectly flat you need to use ribs that are flat on both edges and having edges that are parallel to each other.

During the process of attaching these ribs it should pull the lower skin so it is flat.

Conversely, if you started with a perfectly flat surface as David Marks recommends, you'd still only end up with a flat TB if the ribs were flat on both edges and parallel. Anything less and the final result will not be flat, even if you start with a perfectly flat surface as is shown. It also assumes that you'll be keeping the ribs flat along their face during assembly. I can see this as being the biggest advantage of working from a flat surface -- it will be easier to keep the ribs flat along their faces.

I think we should probably end this part of the discussion as I agree it is not relevant to the guy trying to straighten out his monster rack.
-----
Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

of torsion box construction:

www.geocities.com/bawanewsletter/jun02/torsionbox1.pdf
-----
Thanks,

Dave "Rainbows-R-Us"

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.14 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats