Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know a good lab to either test ultrasound or do a DNA checkup to verify the gender of each tortoise? Has anyone on this forum had any luck with this?

This past weekend (on the other thread), I won first place in the NYTTS society competition (2nd runner up from grand prize), and received a blue ribbon. Since then, I have also improved my ways of raising my star tortoises, and they are doing very well.

I have one animal in particular that will take anyone's breath away. Although the sex is unknown, and it's only a half-yearling, the radiations on the tortoise are astonishing- a completely yellow pattern with no breaks. The double fans are even coming out, with the wide flaring at the bottom. I will post a pic as soon as I can.

Someone once told me that within any given clutch, the bigger tortoises are almost always going to be female, and the smaller ones will probably be male. Can anyone confirm this?

I've taken the advice of the posters on this forum regarding my husbandry techniques. Currently I am feeding my animals the diet suggested by Bill Zovickian in his caresheet: kale, escarole, string beans, and apples-- all chopped finely, and sprinked with rep cal and herptivite daily. I bathe them daily and keep the humidity and temperatures relatively high, with a good day/night cycle.

Right now, according to my intuition, I am guessing that I have 5 females, and 5 males, but I wish that the number was more along the lines of 3:7 or 4:6. If anyone has advice on gender determination, it would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

Though I am keeping redfoots and not stars, from a general tortoise nutrition point of view I just wanted to mention, that beans are high in just about any anti-nutrient you can imagine (oxalic acid, phytic acid, purines and tannins). They are thus not a recommendable tortoise food.
Kale is a good source of calcium but high in goitrogens and thus also should just be fed in small amounts.
Finally I wanted to caution you on overuse of vitamin supplements, especially for your 6-months-old. The very experienced breeder I got my tortoises from had lost a few hatchlings for this reason (autopsy was done and they had severe liver damage), and he is very cautious in this respect eversince.
The Herptivite label claims, that vitamin A overdosing is not possible with this formulation, but if you feed a well balanced diet I would suggest, that a once-a-week supplementation with vitamins should be sufficient and safer.

Good luck with your little beauties,
Gaby

My stars seem to be really happy.. they always eat a lot. Bill Zovickian's staple diet consists of kale, escarole, string beans, and apples. He also says to use rep cal and herptivite daily. If he says that it's right, I'm guessing that it will be ok. So far my tortoises have been doing great. What was your friend feeding his redfoots when they died? Did he use herptivite daily?

Concerned

I am sorry, but this vitamin problem has happened a long time ago, and I don't know which reptile vitamine he had used. All I can say is, that he produces over 100 hatchlings per year, and this was the only time he had lost tortoises ever in over 20 years. In the case of these hatchlings he had started them on vitamins earlier than usual, and since then he starts them on vitamins only when they are over 6 months old.
I didn't mean to offend you or the person you trust. The problem with tortoise nutrition is, that it can take a long time before problems actually show. Thyroid problems from foods rich in goitrogens don't show within months and in the case of liver problems showing it usually means the end already.
All I wanted to say is, that if you feed your tortoises an as varied diet as possible and omit the foods that are exceptionally rich in anti-nutrients, you will not need much supplemental vitamins.
But again,- this was well meant and results from a lot of discussions and a vast amount of reading on the topic.

Gaby

String beans and apples should not be a part of a Star's daily diet. Every couple of weeks as a treat is fine, but the apple will reduce gut motility and the beans will bind calcium as well as encourage unnatural and potentially unhealthy growth. Kale is high in oxalates and should be fed infrequently.

Proper diet is much more important for the young ones than the old ones. When they get older you can treat them without as much risk, but for now, for the benefit of you group, I would definately cut those foods to a minimum.

Thank you Scott and Gaby.

This topic as well as humidity has always been extremely confusing to me. My question is, what is the perfect setup for humidity? Currently, I pour a bit of water so that it covers the bottom of the tub every morning. I use no substrate, but the bottom of the tub has been sanded to provide traction. Since the tub is both heated with a heater underneath, and partially covered, the water is gone by the afternoon. I don't know if this is sufficient for humidity.

As far as diet goes, what would you say is the perfect diet for a young tortoise? When I go to the grocery store, I always wonder if the more "wild" and "natural" greens at the store are good. Things like the very jagged kind of lettuce, escarole, and other greens. What exactly is the perfect diet? Should rep cal and herptivite be sprinkled on the food daily? How often should Mazuri tortoise chow really be fed? Would it be bad to feed Mazuri daily? What happens if Mazuri is sprinkled with Rep Cal and Herptivite? Will any bad effects happen?

Thanks so much, anyone that has input, please give it. This is a very interesting discussion.

Hello Folks,

I have to put in two cents' worth here in my own defense. First, some of my Burmese Star Tortoise Care Sheet information has been misquoted, but I do indeed feed some items which other people consider taboo. I have been doing so for over 40 years and have had relatively good success with my tortoises.

The main thing I wish to impress upon readers is that a varied diet is the key to keeping these animals healthy, and nothing should be fed as a constant routine lest it have ill effects.

I think that many of the statements I see made on this forum are based on hearsay rather than the writers' actual experience. Throughout my tortoise keeping life, I have never believed husbandry advice stated by anyone with less experience than I have myself. If I try something and it doesn't work, then I will make corrections. That mindset has resulted in several discoveries, especially in regard to egg incubation in some species which heretofore had proven extremely difficult to hatch.

Using the diets which you will see below, I have hatched roughly 150 Burmese Stars, and 350 G. elegans (of both types) in the past ten years from breeding groups of less than a dozen adults. The numbers of offspring include TWO generations of Sri Lankan Stars. I have also hatched two generations of Radiated Tortoises and am working on the third. Obviously, if one can hatch a tortoise and raise it to the point where it becomes a succeful breeder itself, something is working. Kale, cabbage, apples, and other fruits have not inhibited the breeding of these tortoises nor adversely affected their health or that of their offspring, because all things are varied and are used in moderation, not as a constant diet. Readers will also notice that no commercial tortoise diets are used.

Here is the text of the misquoted Care Sheet which I hope some readers will find useful:

"There is no tortoise in the world more beautiful and aesthetically pleasing than Geochelone platynota, the Burmese Star Tortoise. For this reason, I have dedicated myself to their captive propagation in the event that the final conservation efforts for this species in the wild should fail.

Burmese Star Tortoises are extremely hardy and are very easy keepers. In their natural habitat, temperatures range from 38° F in the winter to well over 100° F in the summer. In captivity, mine have been maintained indoors at 87° F from 10:00 AM to 4:00 PM, after which the temperature is allowed to drop into the mid 70°s F for the night. At about 7:00 AM, my thermostat senses the ambient temperature and raises it gradually to 87° F by 10:00 AM. When outside, the tortoises have been exposed to temperatures as low as 45° F with no adverse effects.

My tortoises are fed all manner of fruits and vegetables daily while indoors in the winter. The adult tortoises’ staple foods are escarole, kale, string beans, and apples. Babies are fed the same diet with the foods being finely chopped or grated for them. Additionally, for the babies, I often use commercially available premixed salads, such as Dole Field Greens, Classic Salad, Italian Blend, or European Blend, etc. The young tortoises also enjoy the addition of chopped or halved mushrooms to their diet. Food is sprinkled with both Ultra Fine Rep-Cal and Herptevite 3 to 4 times weekly. In the summer months the tortoises are left outside and fend for themselves, grazing on grasses, clover, and other greenery.

Lighting for my tortoises when indoors is provided by a dual bulb fluorescent fixture with one Verilux tube and one Reptisun 7% UVB tube for approximately 15 hours daily. The young Star Tortoises should be soaked every 2 or 3 days when kept indoors and weekly when outdoors. The adult Star Tortoises require less water and are soaked once or twice monthly. Substrate may vary according to regional availability. My personal choice is Eucalyptus mulch."

I wish all readers good luck with their tortoises.

Bill Zovickian

How did I misquote you?

I also feed my colony the items I mentioned that are "taboo". I don't think we disagree. But too much of these items will cause health problems. It is a biological fact, one I base on training on the physiology of the animals, rather than x years of trial and error. (I should point out that what we know now in these domains is remarkably more than we knew 40 years ago. Or even 10.)

There are plenty of people on this forum with less husbandry experience than me whose advice I consider. Because we all bring different stregths and areas of expertise to this discussion. Mine happens to be the biology and blood chemistry of elegans. On the art of egg production and incubation, I defer to others.

The best advice I can give is consider all advice. No matter how old we are, there is still plenty younger hobbyists can teach us.

>>Hello Folks,
>>
>>I have to put in two cents' worth here in my own defense. First, some of my Burmese Star Tortoise Care Sheet information has been misquoted, but I do indeed feed some items which other people consider taboo. I have been doing so for over 40 years and have had relatively good success with my tortoises.
>>
>>The main thing I wish to impress upon readers is that a varied diet is the key to keeping these animals healthy, and nothing should be fed as a constant routine lest it have ill effects.
>>
>>I think that many of the statements I see made on this forum are based on hearsay rather than the writers' actual experience. Throughout my tortoise keeping life, I have never believed husbandry advice stated by anyone with less experience than I have myself. If I try something and it doesn't work, then I will make corrections. That mindset has resulted in several discoveries, especially in regard to egg incubation in some species which heretofore had proven extremely difficult to hatch.
>>
>>Using the diets which you will see below, I have hatched roughly 150 Burmese Stars, and 350 G. elegans (of both types) in the past ten years from breeding groups of less than a dozen adults. The numbers of offspring include TWO generations of Sri Lankan Stars. I have also hatched two generations of Radiated Tortoises and am working on the third. Obviously, if one can hatch a tortoise and raise it to the point where it becomes a succeful breeder itself, something is working. Kale, cabbage, apples, and other fruits have not inhibited the breeding of these tortoises nor adversely affected their health or that of their offspring, because all things are varied and are used in moderation, not as a constant diet. Readers will also notice that no commercial tortoise diets are used.
>>
>>Here is the text of the misquoted Care Sheet which I hope some readers will find useful:
>>
>>"There is no tortoise in the world more beautiful and aesthetically pleasing than Geochelone platynota, the Burmese Star Tortoise. For this reason, I have dedicated myself to their captive propagation in the event that the final conservation efforts for this species in the wild should fail.
>>
>>Burmese Star Tortoises are extremely hardy and are very easy keepers. In their natural habitat, temperatures range from 38° F in the winter to well over 100° F in the summer. In captivity, mine have been maintained indoors at 87° F from 10:00 AM to 4:00 PM, after which the temperature is allowed to drop into the mid 70°s F for the night. At about 7:00 AM, my thermostat senses the ambient temperature and raises it gradually to 87° F by 10:00 AM. When outside, the tortoises have been exposed to temperatures as low as 45° F with no adverse effects.
>>
>>My tortoises are fed all manner of fruits and vegetables daily while indoors in the winter. The adult tortoises’ staple foods are escarole, kale, string beans, and apples. Babies are fed the same diet with the foods being finely chopped or grated for them. Additionally, for the babies, I often use commercially available premixed salads, such as Dole Field Greens, Classic Salad, Italian Blend, or European Blend, etc. The young tortoises also enjoy the addition of chopped or halved mushrooms to their diet. Food is sprinkled with both Ultra Fine Rep-Cal and Herptevite 3 to 4 times weekly. In the summer months the tortoises are left outside and fend for themselves, grazing on grasses, clover, and other greenery.
>>
>>Lighting for my tortoises when indoors is provided by a dual bulb fluorescent fixture with one Verilux tube and one Reptisun 7% UVB tube for approximately 15 hours daily. The young Star Tortoises should be soaked every 2 or 3 days when kept indoors and weekly when outdoors. The adult Star Tortoises require less water and are soaked once or twice monthly. Substrate may vary according to regional availability. My personal choice is Eucalyptus mulch."
>>
>>I wish all readers good luck with their tortoises.
>>
>>Bill Zovickian

Excellent post, Scott. I am definitely learning a lot of new things every day from a variety of sources. For example, during the recent NYTTS tortoise competition, I was able to share my knowledge with others that were less experienced although older.

Yo Scott,

With all due respect, I am a trained health professional (majored in pre-med and biology and have a DDS degree) and do know at least as much physiology as anyone else posting here. I most certainly did not say that anyone must "do it my way" or be doomed to fail, I just stated what has been successful for me. If you choose not to listen or you disagree with my approach, by all means do whatever you want, just don't tell people who have been successful that their methodology cannot work. Likewise, don't just "parrot" (mis)information simply because you have heard it through the grapevine. That was my principal point.

Bill Zovickian

I don't think that was Scott's point at all. I think he meant that your attitude in the above post was very conceited, presumptuous, and insinuating of a younger, and clearly less experienced poster (me). This is definitely not the way to go, and I have done nothing at all to offend you. The information I have written was not mis-representative of you in any way, and I can clearly see that you have something against me. Why, Bill? What have I ever done to you?

...is a GREAT place for things to be lost in translation!

You wrote:
">>I think he meant that your attitude in the above post was very conceited, presumptuous, and insinuating of a younger, and clearly less experienced poster (me). This is definitely not the way to go, and I have done nothing at all to offend you."

Personally, this sounds like YOUR opinion, not Scott's since I believe it's pretty much a 'no-no' to make an assumption on a public forum like this about what one person may have "meant" to say about another. When I read it, Bill said nothing offensive in my opinion toward you. It seems he feels you were out of context with his information and made that clear.

Now, when you stated the following opinion in a previous thread about something I have an opinion on "That's the most ridiculous way of calculating worth I've ever heard. Why don't you factor in all the eggs she'll lay during her lifetime while you're at it?" and then in your next post "In fact, the only tortoises I own are burmese stars, which are MUCH more rare and valuable/expensive than pancakes, and those aren't wild-caught either."

Well, when I read you recent post (above) I thought the EXACT same thing about you! Again, your qoute that seems to fit like a glove when I use it from my perspective about your posts concerning my opinions (whew, that was a lot to say in one sentence): "I think he meant that your attitude in the above post was very conceited, presumptuous, and insinuating of a younger, and clearly less experienced poster (me). This is definitely not the way to go, and I have done nothing at all to offend you."

I'm likely older than you, but I think you get the point with how I feel about your previous comments 'toward' me.

Now, with ALL that said, this is not to call you out on the carpet, but to simply state how things get 'lost in translation' when we can only see a 17" computer screen and what is written on it.

Also, I think it was funny that your post said how your torts are much more rare/valueable than Pancakes. Well, that's fine. I still would place a trio of my breeder Pancakes as being valueable as 10 of your stars... maybe even worth more! If you don't like my value system, fine... that's MY opinion! Please always consider what you say on a public forum. People get impressions and opinions made up pretty quickly.

"What have I ever done to you?

Funny, I thought the same thing with our posts.

All the best with those Stars! Hope this post also does not get lost in translation.

Matt

I would like to chime in here! I have known Bill Z for several years and he has always only tried to help the tortoise community! I highly doubt he was trying to do any of the things that were mentioned in the previous post. He is highly respected and his information is very valuable. He has been one of the most succesfull tortoise breeders in the world. With that being said there are many ways that have proven to be succesfull. I would suggest people not take forum posts personally.
CW

My Two Cents . . . . .
I have learned MANY invaluable husbandry tips from this
here forum. My animals thank me for the variations. I too
respect highly Bill Z., "E.J.", Matt J. & so very many
others. I'm ALL about learning what my animals can't
communicate directly to me. How do I know if i'm "GETTING IT" ?
By their continued health or lack of !! I'm agreeable to
change, my animals aren't, period. Thank-you ALL, very much!!

Hope "The Three Stooges" are behaving!

Later "Mr. Burmah"!

Matt
p.s. - Daytuna in just a few mo months!!!!!!!

I was going to let this drama playout until I read the Stooges comment... Are you implying, no, stating I'm a stooge??????

>>Hope "The Three Stooges" are behaving!
>>
>>Later "Mr. Burmah"!
>>
>>Matt
>>p.s. - Daytuna in just a few mo months!!!!!!!
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I said you were a stooge!
Hey, how are your tortoises adjusting to Georgia?

They are loving it. My big tortoises have doubled in size in the last 2 months... not kidding. The temperatures are high and they eat nonstop.

The RFs really do seem to like the humidity even though it's been kinda dry.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Yep. They should do really well there...not that they were doing badly in San Diego.
Indotestudo would be a good genus for Gawgia too.
BTW...does this mean you are now a Bulldog fan?

Hahahahaha... Sorry, Ed. I was a little lacking in the Stooges translation! It was in regards to Pete's three Elongata.

Hope all is well! Sure we'll see you at Daytona too now that you are in the DEEP south!?!

Matt

>>I was going to let this drama playout until I read the Stooges comment... Are you implying, no, stating I'm a stooge??????

Sorry for any confusion gang!

Matt

>>Hope "The Three Stooges" are behaving!
>>
>>Later "Mr. Burmah"!
>>
>>Matt
>>p.s. - Daytuna in just a few mo months!!!!!!!

Yo Bill:

You missed the part of my post where I said I feed my colony the same items in question (though maybe not as regularly as the thread's original poster). In looking at your care sheet, I don't think we differ all that much in our techniques.

Any disagreement I had was with the caviler stance towards others in the hobby who could teach us a thing or two, now and then, in this domain or that. No man (or woman) is an island unto themselves.

I doubt anyone would accuse you of saying "do it this way or fail". And you probably would never say such a thing. Because no one would take it seriously. Because we all know there is a lot of wandering room on the path of good husbandry.

As a side note, there are least a couple of people (and probably more) who monitor this forum who are biologists in the field. I know of one who works on the embryology of tortoises. And they don't publish in hobbyists outlets, but in actual refereed journals. Researchers can be caviler too, though, and the attitude on both sides sabotages the opportunity for cross-pollination of ideas and techniques.

You are clealy an expert authority on the husbandry of these animals. Congrats on all of your work and successes. They are unparalled in the states.

Scott

>>Yo Scott,
>>
>>With all due respect, I am a trained health professional (majored in pre-med and biology and have a DDS degree) and do know at least as much physiology as anyone else posting here. I most certainly did not say that anyone must "do it my way" or be doomed to fail, I just stated what has been successful for me. If you choose not to listen or you disagree with my approach, by all means do whatever you want, just don't tell people who have been successful that their methodology cannot work. Likewise, don't just "parrot" (mis)information simply because you have heard it through the grapevine. That was my principal point.
>>
>>Bill Zovickian

I will be handing out free diapers at the Expo this year.
Please come by and get yours while they last.
I feed my Burmese and Indian Stars rocks, nails, inner tubes and bathe them in gasoline.

Scott

(not the scott previously posting in this silly thread)

impressed! Cool photo of the twins! How are they doing?

They were actually triplets and didnt survive. One was fully formed and about the size of a nickle. The other 2 were deformed but definately 2 other tortoises. One of them actually pipped the egg.Its was quite a site to see. I actually have them preserved for people who dont believe me. I have never heard of triplets before.

Two others in that clutch survived and are now about 4 inches straight line.

PS
Has anyone ever seen this before?

>>They were actually triplets and didnt survive. One was fully formed and about the size of a nickle. The other 2 were deformed but definately 2 other tortoises. One of them actually pipped the egg.Its was quite a site to see. I actually have them preserved for people who dont believe me. I have never heard of triplets before.
>>
>>Two others in that clutch survived and are now about 4 inches straight line.
>>
>>PS
>>Has anyone ever seen this before?
>>
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Ha! Good one. I hate these people tryin to talk about tortoises all the time on this site. Silly non-sense. I'm glad to see posts like yours that don't actually say anything. I'll help you hand out diapers to all these tortoise-lovin' goofs.

I know you got a bad rep with folks, but youre a-ok in my book.

Scott:

Rocks and nails are fine to feed them on occasion, but inner tubes could be problematic.

I'll stop by your cardboard booth in the expo parking lot to get my diaper.

>>I will be handing out free diapers at the Expo this year.
>>Please come by and get yours while they last.
>>I feed my Burmese and Indian Stars rocks, nails, inner tubes and bathe them in gasoline.
>>
>>Scott
>>
>>(not the scott previously posting in this silly thread)
>>
>>
>>