Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here to visit Classifieds
Click for ZooMed
Click here for Dragon Serpents

Locale question.................

vichris Jun 11, 2006 04:10 PM

This fits right in with the previous post.

I have a pair of River rd. alterna that I feel very confident about in regards to locale. (I trust the breeders/sellers).

I have another female alterna that I purchased as a River rd but I do not have that same sense of confidence as far as locale. I bought her at a herp show last fall from a breeder I didn't know. It's not that I distrust him it's that I don't know him. In addition she doesn't look like most other river rd alterna I've seen. She is definately more of an alterna phase but does exhibit some blair's features too. She is a great looking grey band. I know there have been some blairs found at the river rd locale. I'd take some pics but she is laying eggs as I type this. I'll try and post some pics in the next few days.

Here's my question. Should I advertise the hatchlings as River rd. or non-locale? I do have some eggs incubating now from the other river rd. female that I have full confidence in.

Here's the pair of river rd's I trust. The male is the top pic.

-----
Vichris

Vichris Variables

Replies (13)

Jim_d Jun 11, 2006 06:03 PM

I am a big believer in breeding locale specific whenever possible. the reasons are simply for the enjoyment derived from seeing offspring that theoretically could be, or at least look like animals that are out in the wild and may never otherwise be seen during our lifetime. Loose attachment of a locale is misleading and doesn't really add big dollars to a snakes value anyway.

In my opinion Locality is only going to be important to as many generations as you can trace back to wild caught ancestors. There is nothing wrong with refering to your snakes as river road alternas, but you should be upfront as to the details of how locale specific the animals are.

For a relevent example I have 2 locales I am working with, Juno Rd. and 277. As for the 277 locale, collected a female 3.5 miles north of Loma Alta, and I collected a male 1.4 miles north of loma Alta. I know with 100% certainty the locale of the parents of any offspring, and I would represent them to anyone as F1 277 north of Loma offspring. The fact that I (or any human for that matter) decided that those two exact snakes should breed this year is not a natural pairing, and the offspring are technically "man made" anyway, but are as legit on the locality description as you can get.

The Juno locale pairing I have is made up of a female I personally collected in the "S curves" south of Baker's crossing. However I have a similar situation with My juno male as you described. I purchased the male in at a show in Orlando FL. The guy I bought it from sold it as a lone male yearling marked "Juno Road" the details he provided to me verbally were that it was produced by and purchased from Seven Generations Reptiles of California. I was unable to contact the breeder to verify the animal's origin(I believe they have since gone out of business) the offspring are Juno Rd., but with that description attached.

ofcourse the best case scenario for captive bred or captive born locality animals is to collect a breeding pair in the wild, "caught in the act" and to produce in quantity, offspring from that naturally occuring pairing - this is very rare, assuming it has actually been done.

the bottom line is that if a grayband is to be called a locality animal, the lineage of that animal should ideally trace back to wild caught ancestors. if it cannot be traced back with certainty, I would regard the locality name attached to the animal as helpful, probably accurate, but not precise, and appreciate the beauty of the snake regardless.

Jim

oh, P.S. I really hate hybids in graybands, maybe someday when collecting in Mexico is commonplace and the hybrids look like som naturally occuring integrade, but whenever I see a grayband with a little ruthveni in it it's like nails on a chalkboard to me!

vichris Jun 11, 2006 07:25 PM

Thanks Jim. Again I'll post some pics when she's through with the eggs. She's mostly buryed (sp) in the laying substrate. I think you'll agree she's not all that different from some other RR I've seen. Just enough to raise some doubts. Plus like I said before the seller really gave me reason to distrust him.

BTW I agree with you on the hybrids. I'm mostly into Thayeri and we've had that discussion many times over on the mexicana forum
-----
Vichris

Vichris Variables

Coach Jun 11, 2006 10:36 PM

Jim,
we were happy to see you guys got one. Moe was really impressed with the "in situ" pics . Now she feels more confident she wasn't missing snakes as that they just were not to be seen. We got back Wednesday and I have been back to work and cleaning cages. I'll call you when I get on top of things .

LBenton Jun 11, 2006 06:15 PM

They both look to me like they could have come from FM170 West of Lajitas. But to be honest there is no way to just look at an alterna and say 100% for sure that it is a particular locality based on the way it looks. If it were me I would trust the breeder unless his / her honesty comes into question somehow.

The simple answer, I would call them "River Road" animals, but I would not get as detailed as "Big Hill" "Windmill" "Mud Flats" "Lajitas" etc.... They are good looking animals, I would not spend all my time worried about this.

vichris Jun 11, 2006 07:32 PM

The pics I posted are pics of the two I fully trust ARE river rd animals. The male I got from Vivid Reptiles and he's from the big hill area. The female I posted a pic of is from FM170 just like you thought. I have a second female that is the one in question. She is buryed laying eggs right now (seven that I can see so far). I'll post pics as soon as she is done and is more visable.

Thanks for your thoughtful input.
-----
Vichris

Vichris Variables

vichris Jun 11, 2006 08:47 PM

This is the female I've been refering to. She just got done laying 9 good eggs. I really like her but just have had some lingering doubts about her locale. I have seen a couple of River rd. that look similar but not many. Opinions? Comments?

Thanks for looking.

-----
Vichris

Vichris Variables

alterna63 Jun 12, 2006 12:04 AM

This animal looks like it could be a 277 animal to me. I would say that snake was not even close to a river road animal.

Wayne

jim_d Jun 12, 2006 04:58 AM

nice alterna, but it is just too clean to be a river road. she looks like a western variety like Wayne said 277, or Juno rd. I think some people who know a little about alterna will refer to locality as a pattern type instead of an actual place of origin. not saying the guy that sold it to you was dis-honest just had a different point of view. below is my juno male.

brad anderson Jun 12, 2006 11:39 AM

If you held a gun to my head I would say Val Verde Co. for sure.
Some people used to refer to Juno road sometimes as "river road" since it runs parallel to the Devils River. That was back in the 70's and very early 80's before Hi 170 west of Lajitas was hunted as much. The last 25 years or so it is definitely known as River Road. That would be my only explanation why the seller referred to this girl as a "river road" unless of course he was flat out lying to you. River roads usually command a better price than Juno's and 277's.
My Opinion only remember! Nice pair of true river roads though. BA

LBenton Jun 12, 2006 06:18 PM

I would not say that it could never be a FM170/River Road alterna. But if that was flash card in a guessing game my vote would be Juno or 277.

But at any rate she is a nice looking animal without a doubt.

Lance

stevenxowens792 Jun 12, 2006 10:12 PM

The animals could be from any one of the following counties...
Val Verde
Terrell
Pecos
Crockett (a stretch but possible)
Brewster (from blackgap or possible christmas you never know)

Unfortunately it doesn't look to be from fm 170. The animal is
neat looking and I would appreciate the animal for what it is.
That is the tough part about purchasing Alterna. You are at the mercy of the person and reputation of the breeder.

Good luck on the clutch of eggs. Hopefully all of them will hatch.

Take Care,

Steven

troy h Jun 17, 2006 01:50 PM

I've caught and seen several blair'sy things from the river, but they invariable have band counts approaching 20 (my blairs had 18 bands), and typically have a different color gray than that snake (River snakes typically have scales that are not peppered with tiny white speckles if that description translates).

Anyway, like the others said, "never say never" but it doesn't look like a River to me.

Troy

Steve_Craig Jun 12, 2006 03:17 PM

Your River Rd animals are outstanding. That fist pic is my favorite.

Steve

Site Tools