Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, my girl wasn't due to drop for at least another two weeks, but I noticed yesterday, she had torn up her cage pretty good. I set up a nesting box today and when I went to put in for her, found 11 eggs. Anyone have any ideas why she would drop so early? She was aggressively bred on 5/12, so it's only been 29 or 30 days. Anyway, I am going to treat them as if they are good until they hatch or go competely bad. Pic below, let me know if you think they are good or not.

I think your problem is you are thinking there is a norm for the time frame between breeding to egg laying. There isn't. FR pointed out over in the kingsnake forum that the actual fertilization takes place about the same time as the pre lay shed. I have been to lazy to confirm this but I have no reason to think he is wrong. A second thing that he pointed out which should be much more obvious to us as keepers is that the temps that the snakes are kept at play a huge role in the speed of all functions of the snakes biology, including egg development.

That said I had come to expect eggs right at 30 days with 45 days being long when I was in Florida and it was easier to regulate my snake room temps. Now that I am in Chicago for the last 2 seasons with no AC to cool my place I don't let the temps get as warm in my snake room. This year I am seeing times in the 45-60 day range for the first time even though for many it is common. So no the time frame does not seem short at all. In fact it seems to me that you did a better job than you have before. I say that because it would be the best for the snake to drop the eggs as soon as possible so they enter the next step and hatch out earlier in the year and get more food before it gets cold. Also the eggs die with the female if she is predated upon.

Another thing to think about is if you are judging the ovulation right. If you introduce the male a week before the real ovulation the female will likely still breed but the ovulation is still a week away so you are adding 7 more days to your time frame that you measure. I am not saying this is wrong... yet, but it may add some extra stress to our captives and reduce fertility. The longer the sperm is held the more chance it has to die. Not to mention that multiple breeding may cause stress when one at the right time may be all you need.

Basically I am saying that you may be touching on the next area that we need to look at to fine tune the keeping of our animals. Less stress equals healthier animals and that is what we are all aiming for!!

Later Jason

Ps short answer the eggs look fine

Hey Jason, thanks! Everything you said makes sense to me. If the FR in kingsnake forum is the one and only Mr. Retes, then I am very familiar with his thoughts on reptiles in general and believe in letting the animals tell us how we're doing as keepers. I was heavily into monitor for awhile. Anyway, this is the very first time I have endeavored to breed any kind of rat snake and all the "literature" was pointing to 45 days so I was a bit surprised to see 11 eggs this morning. In any case, they are cooking now and I will keep my fingers crossed for this clutch.

Billy

Yeah that is him. He has lots of thoughts and a lot of them are good...

I believe in taking directions from others but taking the journey on your own if you know what I saying. Some trails are the wrong way but others are short cuts. You just got to figure out for yourself which is which

Later Jason

Thanks again Jason. I try and take the same approach and do what feels right and what the animals guide me to. The eggs have filled out nicely after 24 hours in the incubation medium and are looking pretty good.

Billy

>>Yeah that is him. He has lots of thoughts and a lot of them are good...
>>
>>I believe in taking directions from others but taking the journey on your own if you know what I saying. Some trails are the wrong way but others are short cuts. You just got to figure out for yourself which is which
>>
>>Later Jason

Fertilization taking place during the time of the pre egg laying shed doesn't make sense. In corns that is usually 9 to 12 days before they lay their eggs. The female is obviously gravid at this time. Why would the eggs develop if they are not already fertilized.

Well it may not make sense to you but it is what I was told. The reproductive process was studied back in the 70's and, after what I am sure consisted of many females being opened up and examined, it was supposedly published. Or says Frank. Like I said I haven't checked it out or reserched the paper myself yet. If you do a search in the kingsnake archives back a few months you may turn up the conversation and the name of the resercher is in there.

I am very interested in the "when" of things in the reproductive cycle of our charges. If you have different data or opinions I would be interested to hear it. For instance when do you think fertilization takes place. Or when is the female most receptive to being bred. Or how long is it from fertilization to hatching in ideal conditions.

I am serious if you want to discuss any of this, I am game. I am not trying to challenge you or anything, I am just interested.

Later Jason

So you'd rather believe what you're told than what makes sense?

I continually hear "look it up in the kingsnake archives," and guess what, it isn't there.

Until people start backing up their statements with links or references to published studies, I'll believe what makes sense, rather than what I'm told (if what I'm told sounds rediculous).

Tim

I never asked you to believe anything for one. For two you came off as very hostile but offered no info to tell anyone what you think. For three you shouldn't use 4 syllable words if you can't spell them.

Now I will ask FR for the name off the person who researched the fertility process in snakes and for a possible year (he just said the 70's before). If he responds to me I will post it as a new topic. If you have anything educational to say I will continue this thread. From what I can tell I wrote 3-4 paragraphs of info and you have a problem with one line. Or is it all of it???

Later Jason

JH "Here are the two post out of the conversation I was refering to that pertain here."

This is FR's response to my asking how the whole timing thing plays out and why there are differences between keepers and their time frames between breeding and egg laying.

Posted by: FR at Tue Mar 21 21:57:12 2006 [ Email Message ]

The main problem is, these colubrids are ectotherms. That means, their functions can vary greatly due to simple temperature use.

Of course there is a range where the snakes are successful. Keepers routinely exceed this range, both with temps to cool and temps too high. More importantly, its not the actual temps themselves, but being to consistant. Not allowing the snakes to make choices.

Normally a female colubrid will Cloacal gape(receptive) just before the ovum drop from the overies. Up until the ovum start to enlarge.

Copulation to fertilization(about the time of the pre-egg laying shed) varies from, 15 to 35 days, and fertilization to ovi-deposition is from one day to aprox. 14 days. So from copulation to ovi-deposition is simple math. A useable average is from 25 to 45 days, depending on useable temps.

As I have mentioned before, quality of nesting plays a very important part with this time. Poor nesting can indeed extend the time and quality nesting can shorten it.

So now we have useable temps and nesting choices, as a major control over this range of times.

Now you must consider that many here, CONTROL, these times by controlling conditions to the Tee. Then others offer different controlled conditions. Therefore you have a huge range of times and understandings. Cheers

JH "Here is where he mentions the guy who studied the reproduction process."

Charles Carpender, wrote lots of reproductive behaviors with colubrids. But unfortunately, he missed many keep behaviors, but he did hit on many. He was at U. of Oklahoma or OK state. I forget, mid seventies or so. He defined many reproductive behaviors like Cloacal gaping, etc. He did so in a very general way, missing key differences.

The other and by far the best book is sitting right in front of you. The snakes themselves. They have a funny shiny cover, but inside that cover, they have the information you will need, in fact, they have ALL the information. All you have to do is ask them(read them)

To offer the same things over and over, is like reading the same page over and over. Yes each time you read the same page, you will absorb a little more. The problem is, they contain hundreds even thousands of pages. So instead of asking silly humans(who know so little)(and are such boneheads, they keep reading the same page and then saying theres only one page) ask the snakes. They are there for you. Which I believe is why most of us keep the snakes in the first place(can't be for the money) So it must be to learn.

Such a funny thought. You have a library at home, then ask others about one page in one book. hmmmmmmmm

Please do not take offense at this direction I am taking but. One of the huge problems with biologist is, they learn and are educated to read books and papers, but not educated to read the animals. There faith is in the books and papers. This is where I part(to offend them. I part from the chosen path) My ability is to read the snakes(reptiles) and hold that information above(more important then) the information people offer. You can ask those who have been in the field with me. Its sorta a natural gift and I have worked hard to develop that gift. Cheers

JH "I don't have any idea how to make his statements bold so I put my initials before my statements."

Later Jason

It's a good thing that you "never asked you to believe anything" because I wouldn't have - at least not what you said.

As far as coming off hostile, your "you shouldn't use 4 syllable words if you can't spell them" doesn't exactly have a friendly tone, does it?

The "info to tell anyone what I think" is that one shouldn't believe ridiculous statements when there are no studies to back them up. You failed to provide any documentation relating to a study to support the idea of snakes being fertilized at the time of their pre-egglaying shed. Saying "I think many snakes were cut open in the 70s" does not quite qualify as a valid reference.

So there - you've got your "3 or 4 paragraphs" with "something educational" which is basically the same thing I said in my previuos post: Don't go making hard-to-believe comments without backing them up with references.

Tim

This is what I don't understand and you see if it makes sense to you. Just about every snake I have ever bred is noticeably "bigger" 2 to 3 weeks after she has bred. I have a gray rat snake right now that has bred on May 11th, 34 days ago and will shed in the next couple of days. According to the paper you are referring to she is not gravid yet but soon will be? Why would a snake develop those eggs if she is not in fact gravid. Food for thought and I will check this out further.

Rick

Rick,

I agree with you. I've been breeding snakes for 15 years and on numerous occasions removed the female from the male when she was obviously gravid, prior to a pre-egglaying shed.

The females subsequently shed and laid fertile eggs 7-10 days later, without ever being exposed to a male for several days prior to, as well as after, the pre-egglaying shed.

Tim

Third Eye

Yes but snakes are known to carry sperm for periods of time. With that in mind, the time of fertilization can be anytime from the breeding to the egg laying . The question is when is fertilization???? I pointed out that there is supposedly a paper out there somewhere where this is talked about but lets ignore that.

When you breed a pair of snakes the fertilization is not immediate. This is obvious by the fact that you can get multiple fathers in one clutch of eggs. So when is it?? I don't know myself but I am curious. Just because you take the male out it doesn't mean that the eggs are fertilized. The stored sperm can be introduced at any time before the eggs are laid. The one barrier is that the eggs are calcified at a point before they are laid. So when is that?? If you have the answer to that you can have a end point for the window of available time for fertilization.

The issue of people introducing males before the females have ovulated brings up the problem of having a false start date to measure from. Then add in the fact that all keepers don't keep their snakes in the same setup or same temp range and you can get really confused.

Later Jason