Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Bob,

Thanks for the photos. I think your photos confirm my suspicions. But I will not repeat my suspicions, lest they bias someone's interpretation of the photos.

These are two different 5 foot black milksnakes. If you owned/were buying these, what gender would you assign to snake 1 and snake 2? (assume nothing about either/both of them)

Thanks for any replies.

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Well, they are both the same sex, that much I can tell.

I know nothing of sexing black milks.. so I would have guessed male if I didn't read your post below.

I would say that both are males. However, I NEVER rely entirely on visual sexing. I always probe. I have seen too many mistakes when sexing visually.

Chris, My best guess would be males. I'm just the typical hobbyist though. Nice photos by the way. I've got to work at it. Really liked that photo you posted of their natural habitat.

Hey Chris,

While it is true that you cannot be 100% certain by just seeing visual pics or analyzing (unless you see that the snake is actually aggressively mounting and using his tail to mate), probing is the best method.

However, I've had great success in determining visually only if they are fully developed adults. If those 2 are, then while the pics you provided are great, you need to look at the "sideview" images as well....meaning you entend the tail and you are not looking at the bottom portion but the sides of the snakes. If you see an indention in its cloaca, then that's the first indication it is a female. Then look at the pics you provided and if you compare that with a known male and the subject's tail is shorter and not tapering long but kinda fat near the cloaca as it tapers into the end, then it is probably a female.

But again, the probing is the best method if you want certainty. Next best is put it with a female and see if it mounds her.

Good luck,
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RAY

Those are two males. Or some females with nads. LOL
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Steve W.

Those large lumps you are seeing beyond the cloaca aren't the hemipenes (or gonads for that matter - gonads are up in the body cavity). I think they are large anal scent glands you see under the tail of most female Lampropeltis. In fact, in my experience the large lump beyond the cloaca is diagnostic of female kings.
Male kings are wider at the base of the tail, but the width continues much further into the tail base.

If those are hemipenes, then Black Milks have shorter hemipenes that other snakes I have seen/worked with.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

The nads thing was a joke. Are you saying that those snakes look like females to you? Females taper off much more than what those pics are showing. I guess I could be wrong but probing is the only sure way.
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Steve W.

I would say they are both males. jeff

sniff...sniff.....females

Randy

You pretty much said in your last post they are both females; I was going to guess #1 male #2 female. The tail on number two tapers noticeably after the scent gland area.

Since Captive Bred (reared) snakes are heavier than their wild counterparts, the tail taper is less noticeable looking straight down at the cloaca than from the side view. If you look at both the straight down view and the side view on a sub-adult or older snake, there is not much guess work. A couple of these cubby females made me second guess myself a few times until I started looking at both views. Wild snakes are far easier to sex visually because they are leaner.

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Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Thanks for the input. I will post a couple of top/side/bottom tail views soon for comparison.

I agree that probing is better, and I have probed them on several occasions. I can normally eyeball the gender on most snakes without much trouble.

I don't see the post-cloacal widening in Bob's photos like I do in mine. I also think his show more subcaudals than mine as well.

I will post more pics and reprobe them later this week.

Thanks again for the input.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

I have seen those bulges in many female colubrids, my Black Pine Females exhibit prominent bulges as well.
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Frank Roberts
R&R Herpetological Frank Roberts & John Rodriguez
Roberts'Realm of Reptile Research

So what was the final outcome?
This topic has got me freaking out. I looked at my adult black milks and all three have the same looking tail. I swear I seen them mating though. My so called female (hopefully) should be laying eggs anytime now. She just had her shed about an hour ago, so now I'm waiting like a little kid on Christmas eve.
But back to the topic. Dont forget to post the conclusion to this topic. I'll be bummed if I have three adult males.
I'll also post if I get eggs!

Jason Mc