Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Greetings gang.

Been some years since I was here, and actively involved in Monitor care.

I have an opportunity to acquire a baby Roughneck Monitor.

I wish to have the tank properly prepared for him/her beforehand.
I've read about the web for care sheets, but they conflict as to where these wonderful animals come from.

I'm currently using a 40 breeder tank, heavily planted, with a waterfall in one corner. Substrate is soil, but I can easily place something over the soil if need be.

Lighting for the plants is accomplished by Power Compacts in the 10k daylight/03 actinic range. There are large climbing (cured) driftwood about the tank, as well as some climbing vines (artificial) going from corner to opposite corner.

Heatand humidity ranges would be helpful, as well as anything else I've missed.

Feeding will be done outside the tank, and starting with store bought insects. Dusted naturally. The monitor is currently (snout to tail) 12", lively, alert (lots of tongue flicking), wide eyed and colourful. All fingers and nails appear intact, and no damage anywhere that I can see.

Right- so, advice?

V. rudicollis are almost always extremely dehydrated after import, I would ditch the breeder tank and set up a quarentine/hydration chamber.For an exellent description of how to set one up go to www.treemonitors.com and check out their quarentine section.
I am currently getting a group together and am using these set ups for quarentine with great results.
Please remember to treat this animal like it just went through the ringer and is lucky to be alive, 'cause if it is a fresh import, it is.

Thank you for the information. FWIW, that website is very poorly laid out. The information is sparse, and lacks any kind of external documentation.

It mostly seems like a one-man site of "this is what works for me" more than a scientific discourse.

Now, having said that, I'm going to follow, to the letter, what he says, as he has much more experience than I do.

All the same, I'd like some other input/feedback on my topic, if I can.

I wouldn't bother moving him from his cage to feed him. At this point, he is massively stressed. That means that his immune system is compromised AND he is likely loaded with parasites. The less that you interfere with him as he settles in, the better.

Best wishes-you chose a beautiful animal.

While I do not go to sites, and particularly this site.I have no need to. I do not care for this fellas attitude. I would think what you discribed is exactly what you should expect. And for what it is, I am sure its done well. I am glad he is expressing his own experience. While I do not care for him, hes trying very hard and working at it. which is all anyone can ask.

What you should be judging is results per effort. Which means, this fella(or any fella) has put a ton of effort(a good thing) without the benefit of a ton of results(a bad thing), but alias, its still in progress, and I wish him well.

At this time, personal experience by private keepers is ten thousand times more advanced then scientific interpitations(results achieved) Science at this time is very very poor when it comes to keeping living animals. At least for any lenght of time. Science=scientific institutions.

As with the above, with science you need to consider the same, results per effort. The problem with science is, they use very little actual data and a whole lot of math.

If you want to be scientific, you could come up with formulas that will tell you what captives should do.

Lets see, all living animals exsistance is to replace itself. In most cases(not humans) neonate mortality is high, lets make a guess, from 70% to 100% per season. So over a the life of a female, she must produce enough offspring to continue exsistance as a species.

So a pair, has a need to produce as least two offspring that survive and reproduce to exsist. And if you include an 80% neonate mortality rate, that pair should be expected to produce a very bottom minimum of 10 offspring just to escape exstintion. But fortunately, they can and do exceed that, to support a healthy ecosystem(or help pay their costs in captivity), they must produce food/product for other species/keepers. So with a healthy pair, you should expect many times that 10 offspring minimum. Let shoot at a low number. A healthy pair must produce 30 healthy offspring(consumable)to be considered successful.

Sir that is more or less a very strong reality. How many sites have information that supports 30 offspring per pair, private or zoos or scientific???????? In reality, that is a very low number.

I have individuals that have far exceeded that. One female is laying her 62nd clutch now(9yrs of age) Also some females that have produced far more clutches, but did not have that long of a productive period.(just examples)

So I agree, most, in fact all information, at this time is very weak(including mine) So take what you can, if his site has something to offer you to try. Try it. No site has a complete discription of all things varanid. They only offer information of use. Your suppose to use your brain and think what to apply. Keeping animals is, no more and no less, only application of information(test). Its not information read. Reading information is absolutely worthless, unless its correctly applied.

There are other strong realities, keeping animals will only end in failure, they all will eventually fail(die) its what happens while they are alive thats important. Success is always temporary.

Which raises the giant question, you must have energy and understanding to apply it. Most don't. So they call the information, incomplete or cryptic.

I guess what I am doing is defending Bobs site, and saying if you find fault in his site, its more about you. Cheers

You can defend him all you want, of that I have no issues with that. *My* impression of his site, and postulating from that site, is that he's a little "over zealous" and it's his way or the highway.

All I was asking, is some more info so I can compare and contrast, and see what can be gleaned as fact (or at least by and large correct) and where differences are.

As an aside, many years ago, I had an adult Roughneck and an Adult Savannah mate. The Savnnah laid 12 eggs. Wish they would have been fertile, it would have been interesting to see the offspring.

As far as scientific=math, that was not my point, I was looking for into the scientific methodology applied to keeping the Varanus spp., as opposed to "this is what works for me, and by the way, this is the only way to go" impression I got.

Not trying to start anything here, just stating impressions, and looking for more data.

You must ponder this, your criticism of his site, is very similar to his criticism of my information. This makes me laugh.

In both cases, the reasons are the same. There is very little other information to be had.

About his way or the highway, that is absolutely fine, all you have to do is click and your on another highway. You see, you went to " his " site, to read and see, "his" information. Therefore, it "is" his highway. If you come to me, you will have another highway, my highway. If you do not like my highway, then you are welcome to local and follow another highway. Then if your actually are around long enough, you can have your own highway.

I get it, you want him to gather and compare the information you want. Not the information he wants. In that case, you do that for yourself, use his information as One, now look for two and so on and so forth.

Heres the neat part, my highway states, its very easy to sustain and keep healthy and breed, all species of monitors. And you can do so in the same exact cages With the same exact temps. All you need is to give them choices they will make. And some slighly different materials, such as substrate and other such minor differences. Then again, I am the one who came up with, "heatum and feedum" and "the more your read, the less you breed". We even had shirts made up. Cheers

Cool, just so we're on the right path.

So, while I'm gaining information, what's your website address?

A website is like a book, the moment its written, its out of date.

Particularly with varanids, that are a little slow to be understood.

I have a forum, like this forum. Forums are updated daily. Like a newspaper. The latest success or failure can be discussed as they happen.

To me, this is far better then something that was written and is possibly out of date.

For instance, a caresheet is a list of things that if done right will lead you to lots and lots of problems that need to be solved. We deal with these real time day to day problems. To me, thats whats important. Not comparable theories of non appliable information on varanids

Today is an active day for me, I have monitors hatching, monitors breeding, and monitors nesting, all in the same day. What that really means is, I can still screw up in a ton of different areas. I can make the wrong decisions in many areas, Thats keeping monitors. hahahahahahahahaha

So what were you really asking? Cheers

>>A website is like a book, the moment its written, its out of date.>...is very similar to his criticism of my information

Greetings,

While I always enjoy and encourage constructive criticism, especially if it could benefit the website I own and operate, I do think that you skipped over or missed substantial portions of the website, based on your thoughts and impressions which you elaborated on above.

I created treemonitors.com with the goal of establishing a network/resource for tree monitor enthusiasts (and other Varanus enthusiasts alike), which can be used to link up with fellow keepers (a forum, a 24 hour chatroom, a voice chat, and a member's list), share their thoughts and experiences, and learn from one another.
treemonitors.com/community.htm

Prior to the creation of this website, information on the tree monitor complex had been scarce, poorly referenced, or difficult to track down and locate.
treemonitors.com/resources.htm

I do not deny that being the webmaster of the site, there is more content written by myself on various subjects than any other single contributor. What I feel that you have failed to notice or recognize, is that this website contains numerous accounts, articles, photographs, external links to other online resources and articles, and compiled reference lists of taxa-specific papers and publications; all written by other individuals. Just because I have taken the time to elaborate on my personal experiences with my own captives does not render these experiences or observations useless. As more people begin to share and contribute, the information which I have taken the time to share with others, can be compared with and contrasted against others' experiences, allowing us to increase our understanding.

If you were to take the time to peruse through the entire website and compile a list of all of the information offered both in text and reference, including external links, cited journal articles and various other publications, you will see that there is substantially more information by other authors there than of my own.

In an attempt to expose visitors/enthusiasts to even more literature and information on these animals, I have also offered to supply my own personal copies of various publications not available online, which I hold in my own possession, to any enthusiast interested in learning more about Varanus. treemonitors.com/thelibrary.htm

While I have had personalized websites in the past, which reflect exclusively on my own captives and experiences and nothing more, the aim and goal of this website is to display accounts and experiences from many different keepers from all over the globe, so that we may all learn through eachothers' experiences. I am very pleased with the number of people who have helped out and contributed to this website thus far, and look forward to what the future has in store for the Varanus prasinus complex. It's great to see that there are many enthusiasts out there who are in favor of progressing our understanding of these fascinating animals and are willing to share their ideas and experiences with others.

I do think that you may have missed much of the website, if all you got out of it was just a single individual's thoughts and ideas. As I mentioned before, there are many people who have helped out by contributing content in various different media,as well as countless amounts of information which spread further than the pages of the site.
treemonitors.com/specialthanks.htm

Thank you for your criticism, I'm sorry you weren't able to find treemonitors.com helpful in your quest for information pertaining to Varanus rudicollis. Best of luck to you in your search; I suggest you contact Ben Aller, as he has a great deal of experience with roughneck monitors in captivity. Take care, and have a wonderful day,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

Correct me if I am wrong, I know you like to do that.

But isn't Bens experience with Dum's and not Rudis? I have read recently they hes starting to work with Rudis.

You know personally to me its all the same. But you fellas seem to want all monitors to be different.

Why would you recomend information from someone who has merely started.

This goes for you. In my opinion, The founders, WC's, are the begining of a program, not the program. That is, they are the start. The experience is gained from the meat of the subject. You know, many generations of captive breeding. But of course I would understand that, because I have done that.

I believe this middle or meat of the subject is where valid advice comes from, not the start.

I strongly believe this is where we totally differ. You believe the learning is in the gathering of information, the building of the original cages, etc. As opposed to me. I believe the information is gained in the actual generations of the animals in captivity(your cages, not others) I say your cages as your the one doing the talking.

When I started with varanids, most all the information was like yours, it was about the start. The problem is, to start anything is very easy. The difficult part of any job is to successfully finish. This is the hard part, to finish.

In finishing, the only person I currently know that finished(not generations, but produced many clutches) with rudis is Dragoon. I do know a ton of people who started and are working on a start. Many come here. Some have recieved clutches but did not hatch them. Which as you know, is the hard part. Cheers

..or should I say, Which came first, generations of monitors, or a starting point?

Unfortunately, we must all start somewhere, Frank. You seem to feel that sharing information at even such a "startup-level" is a bad thing. Being that I see very few people, if any who are having repeated success with tree monitors and roughneck monitors (generations), I don't think there is much a choice in what we have to work with and discuss; besides, whatever information and experiences (whether it be success or failure) we can compile about our experiences, even at such a 'beginner level' is always good thing, as it allows us to pick through and compare eachother's experiences, and pick out what is consistent among eachother's dealings, what works and what doesn't work, and use what we've gathered towards progressing our understanding of what is best for these animals in captivity. Trial and error on a much larger scale.

As for roughneck monitors, they are in a similar situation, in fact I am willing to bet that there is far less information regarding these animals out there than tree monitors, and even less captive breeding success with this species. Ben has kept V. rudicollis in the past, which is why I referred this individual to him. He also operates a website in which he is the process of compiling all/most of the written literature regarding V. dumerilii and V. rudicollis, making access to such literature easier for enthusiasts who are interested in reading about these species, whether it be about captive husbandry or natural history.

Perhaps communicating with fellow and former keepers is a bad thing? Maybe we should just keep to ourselves, become herpetocultural hermits, and never share any of our observations, experiences (regardless of how insignificant or trivial they may seem), or successes(and failures) with fellow hobbyists and enthusiasts. Varaniculture would surely progress at an alarming rate, and our understanding of monitor lizards would be unparalelled. But wait, then there would be no need for such a forum...
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Treemonitors.com

You simply add stuff to what I say that is not there. I do not say this or that is bad. You do. I am a very simple person, I generally only mean exactly what I say. Adding to that is not going to work. I hope your better are reading reptiles then humans.

I simply think you should answer in a apples to apples situation. The answer should reflect the question.

Most questions are based on the understanding that those who answer them have done the said event. Have experienced the question. In this case, has intimate knowledge of rudis, breeding, eggs, hatching etc. I gave the best anwser, DRAGOON. do you deny that?

I know its my problem, you seem to respond with a potential solution, not a real solution. Which is fine if labelled correctly. As in, this is our attempt. Not, this is how tree monitors(simple example) should be kept.

Why its my problem and why I am sensitive to this is, When I first entered the varanid world, it was chock-o-block with potential solutions, with few if any real solutions. Those solutions were labelled as fact or real. Much to my surprise, most were not. They were simply hopeful theories. I would rather have been told nothing, they work through all the huey.

For instance, this fella did not seem to care for that very approach. This is how its done. The, my way or the highway approach. IT should read, this is our attempt at doing this, its working good so far, etc etc.

Your failure to understand me is, I have always reported results, after the fact, not before the fact. In lots of cases, you and others say this, So frank your saying this or that. No, I am reporting results, I am not saying anything. I feel you do not fully understand that difference. I guess if you had a longer history of real results, then you would know the difference between potential or hopeful information and real results.

I fully understand that your method of reporting attempts is normal, most do that. In this, I am the oddball. I report results. Then we can all figure out how it came about. The reality is, I have no need to figure out results when they are good results. Good results are the goal.

Oh by the way, reptiles came first. The genisis of the amniote egg is attributed to reptiles, not birds, So which came first the chicken or the egg, the reptile did. Cheers

Bob-

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Mostly I found the website to be difficult to navigate, and a number of 404s on your links.

I found certain artles to be less than informative, while others, which (IMO) weren't as important, to be overly long.

While I have absolutely no doubt your knowledge far exceeds mine, as well as your successes, I didn't really find anything on your site that I didn't already know.

Perhaps my expectations are too high, but I don't think this monitor is a rare, or hard to keep one, yet I see doom and gloom from just about everywhere I go. And what I have found across the web, is little more than horror stories, with little actual work or research, on roughnecks or other tree-dwelling monitors. It's surprising really.

I've only got very little experience~ but I've been caring for Rico (our Rudi) for almost 2 years now.

I started him in a tank like your 40 gallon breeder~ but it didn't take him more than 8-10 months to start to outgrow it. You might want to start planning your cage upgrade now so it won't be such a burden on the pocketbook when you need a larger cage.

Feed~ I feed him Mice and rats almost exclusively. I used to give him crickets sometimes~ but somehow some of the little bugs always escape and are loose in my house.......so prekilled rodents is the mainstay. I gave him a live mouse once ~thought it would be good exercise for him to chase it down~ but he didn't chase it down. He waited for it to wonder by, snatched and swollowed it whole.....live.....I didn't do that again.

He also gets Boiled eggs (almost everyday~ but I have noticed the more boiled eggs he gets the more his feces stinks~ and since I have to clean it.........back to more rodents) Sometimes he gets a little cooked chicken......because he likes it and I spoil him.....but mostly prekilled rodents.

As far as temps and humidity? This is awful~ but I don't know the exact temps in his cage. I know that his basking spots get to as high as 120F and the bottom of the cage gets as low as the high 60'sF. He spends at least part of each day in each area and seems happy. I don't know his humidity~ but I don't think it is high enough~ he has stuck sheds......so sometimes I take him out in my ENCLOSED court yard and turn a sprinkler on him while I clean his cage (My son watches to be sure the monitors don’t try to rush the gate while I’m cleaning). He seems to like the water part~ but I always take a tail whip moving him back and forth. Now that he has a girlfriend (Goblyn) she also gives me some nice tail whips and hisses for my trouble. Neither have bityen me for moving them~ but they sure do make it clear they don’t consider themselves “pets.”

Hope some of that helps. I don't know that I'm doing it "Right" but Rico seems healthy~ and Goblyn seems to be doing pretty well since she moved in with us too.

Good Luck

Rico & Goblyn in the sprinkler

Rico on a basking shelf

Goblin having a snack

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Cheryl Marchek
AKA JM
The Red Dragons Den
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons~ for you are Crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!

Thank you for the information.

Years ago, I had an adult Roughneck "Pugsley" was his name, and he was dog tame. Wild caught, but just his nature. He had a room to himself (being long) and lots of places to climb, which, oddly, he didn't do. He loved the ground.

Go figure.

Your pair are very pretty BTW.