Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok so my albino burm is almost 2 years old,but is only around 6 1/2 feet.He is parasite free and eats a large rat every ten days.I live in miami florida so he gets time outside(caged) and inside so I'm not sure how abnormal this is to be this size at almost 2 years old...is this something else I should be doing...because I know it should be bigger at this time

also,a little off topic,but at 2 years,regardless of size,is breeding an option for my albino..and I call it a he,but am not really sure,is there any decent way,without probing,to determine a burms sex?

thanks for all the help guys..

Mike
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3 American Alligators
1.0 Albino Burm
1.0 Green Tree Python
0.1 Veild Chameleon
1.0 Red Eyed Tree Frog
1.0 Bearded Dragon

"Never insult an Alligator until you have crossed the river"-oriental proverb

A 6 1/2 ft burm could take much larger then a large rat. I have 6ft /- Sri lankan pythons that are taking 2lb pigs. A burm the same size as my sri lankans would be able to take much bigger prey! It's not common and it sounds as though he was well underfed as a youngster. Regardless of size, if he's old enough yes "it" could breed. Age and maturity are the two big ones; size doesn't really matter much if you have the other two. Popping would be the only other way to tell and I wouldn't recommend this as it's pretty hard on the animal.
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

I could be wrong, but I don't think you will successfully pop a 2 year old burm. I've never tried it, but everything I've read says it generally only works on neonates. Finding an experienced keeper to probe it is the way to be sure. You can also be about 90% sure on a burm by the size of the spurs...if you have a male and a female to compare. If you could post a photo of his vent (and the underside of the tail for scale), I can probably tell you.

Yeah, he's a bit small. You could easily double or possibly triple what you're feeding him. If you could weigh him, that would be helpful.

Ok guys,lemme try to get a pic of the spurs up in the next few days...

Also,Larry...I did just realize that you are a fellow Outpost-er,as am I...Im not sure if you rememeber we met a few weeks back on the snake room..just thought it was a cool coincidence

Ok ill get that pic up and see if we can figure out the sex...Because I was going for the,being able to look at the spurs and tell, response cuz I know popping would be very rough on the snake

thanks guys,
Mike
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3 American Alligators
1.0 Albino Burm
1.0 Green Tree Python
0.1 Veild Chameleon
1.0 Red Eyed Tree Frog
1.0 Bearded Dragon

"Never insult an Alligator until you have crossed the river"-oriental proverb

>>Also,Larry...I did just realize that you are a fellow Outpost-er,as am I...Im not sure if you rememeber we met a few weeks back on the snake room..just thought it was a cool coincidence

Yeah, you're the second person in 2 weeks on this board to recognize me from the Outpost. Were you the one working in the snake room the day I just dropped in to pick something up? Sorry, I'm terrible with names...

If you live close by, feel free to bring him by on saturday and I'll probe him for you if it's not obvious from the spurs. (After noon. I'm not a morning person...)

Yea I was in the snake room and you were picking up a trap I beleive you said...Yea the camera i have is not the best camera and I can't get a great pic up of the spurs.Sat. Im always working,thats why im there on mon. and wed. for now..which yea i know,it gonna take quite a bit of time for my venomous license..but oh well

the spurs on the burm are fairly large,about a cm. in length.A while back when I bred balls,I notice that on my burm now the spurs are about as big as my female ball(which I dont have anymore)..but I dont think thats as a good of a comparison being different species and size and everything else.Im just tryin to throw out any info I can and see if it helps

thanks,
Mike
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3 American Alligators
1.0 Albino Burm
1.0 Green Tree Python
0.1 Veild Chameleon
1.0 Red Eyed Tree Frog
1.0 Bearded Dragon

"Never insult an Alligator until you have crossed the river"-oriental proverb

Nice to meet some other South Fla herpers! Speaking about venomous permits I'm about to start putting my hrs together. Started when I turned 18 and I'm 21 now. I've worked with pretty much everything at this point. Good luck with it! BTW your burm appears healthy but if you really want size start to pound him with food.
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

John,very cool man,where did you get most of your hours at?just curious
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3 American Alligators
1.0 Albino Burm
1.0 Green Tree Python
0.1 Veild Chameleon
1.0 Red Eyed Tree Frog
1.0 Bearded Dragon

"Never insult an Alligator until you have crossed the river"-oriental proverb

My best Friend keeps all kinds of crazy stuff. I'm not at liberty to speak of who or what is being kept sorry. Great guy though!!! I have hours at Underground reptiles, in the field and plenty of hrs else where. I could of applied for my permit a long time ago but I've just waited till now. Don't ask me why.
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

For 2 years old that seems pretty small for a burm, even a male at that age. My 7 month old albino male was barely 28 inches in January, right now, he is almost 6 feet & is as thick as an adult male's forearm. He's been eating large rats since he was 4 feet, now pounding down 3-4 lb rabbits every 5-7 days. Up the feeding and he'll probly grow for yah.

First, it sounds like your burm is very well cared for; feeds well, gets some fresh air outside (hopefully well supervised), etc. Yes, the burm is a tad small at that age, however, we are all basing that on CAPTIVE records...and, its well known that most captive burms are FAT AND OBESE who will most likely live shortened lives. A large/jumbo rat for a 6' burm is perfectly acceptable; probably much better than stuffing it with a rabbit or pig that is uncharacteristically large for that size of a snake. The healthiest burms I have seen have a nice, lean muscle mass; these are also the best breeders and many of these are in their 20's and 30's....they are stunning specimens. Our large burms, 16-18', for example, are fed 2-3 pound rabbits twice a month (at most). Now that seems exceptionally small for a snake of that size, however, I would prefer to feed a couple of smaller meals rather than stress the snake out with one large meal; that's just my philosophy and since some of my burms are in the 20/30 year range, I'll stick with what has been successful for me. Sure, these snakes as adults are adapted to taking humongous meals but we are talking about what they prey on in the wild versus a captive setting. These same snakes in the wild will probably go 6 months between meals and yet, many captive burms are fed 12 pound rabbits every week...can't imagine what their livers must look like. Anyway, assuming this "small" and "underfed" burm is parasite free, has the proper environment, and is feeding, I wouldn't worry too much; give the snake 20 years to grow, without pushing the feeding too much, and you'll have a big, beautiful snake on your hands.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Ok so my albino burm is almost 2 years old,but is only around 6 1/2 feet.He is parasite free and eats a large rat every ten days.I live in miami florida so he gets time outside(caged) and inside so I'm not sure how abnormal this is to be this size at almost 2 years old...is this something else I should be doing...because I know it should be bigger at this time
>>
>>also,a little off topic,but at 2 years,regardless of size,is breeding an option for my albino..and I call it a he,but am not really sure,is there any decent way,without probing,to determine a burms sex?
>>
>>thanks for all the help guys..
>>
>>Mike
>>-----
>>3 American Alligators
>>1.0 Albino Burm
>>1.0 Green Tree Python
>>0.1 Veild Chameleon
>>1.0 Red Eyed Tree Frog
>>1.0 Bearded Dragon
>>
>>
>>
>>"Never insult an Alligator until you have crossed the river"-oriental proverb
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Hi Rob-
You have raised the question here of overfeeding and frankly, I'm suprised it took so long to surface in this thread. Now I dont know the "truth" about such matters, but I have attempted to research the phenomonon that you reference; that over feeding (frequency and prey size) commonly leads to shortened lifespan. I can't find any evidence to support that. I think the concept (accurate or not) is lore, not a scientific fact. If you know of any good studies that lead to that conclusion I'd sure like to see them.
There is a school of thought (and maybe some 'evidence') that caloric austerity of might maximize lifespan, but no one would recommend half-starving a snake in order to allow have it live a year or two more.
Again I have no problem with beliefs (specifically in reptile husbandry or in general) but I object to having the same called truth, knowledge or evidence.
Bill

Naturally there are no groups of studies, each comprised of hundreds of test subject burmese that have been conducted or are being conducted that can prove conclusively one way or the other what would affect the lifespans of burmese in terms of their diets. But.... I think it falls within the perimeters of common sense that to overfeed ANY animal could and likely would lead to health issues and by implication directly to shortened lifespans.

Also, while not scientifically conclusive I do lend credence to information that is the byproduct of individual observation or personal knowledge gleaned from years of "hand's-on experience". I know when I see better results in my own animals and I would not hesitate to base my advice upon this experience or "knowledge". So I for the most part agree with Rob on this one. While I do not feel it will do the snake any harm to give him larger meals now and then I would agree that it should not be a weekly practice well into the adult years of the snake. Their metabolisms slow down incredibly after their second year of life and even just a little more food with frequency, which would be readily accepted by any opportunistic burmese, can lead to too much stored up fat in their bodies and around their organs. For females that breed every year this is not such a "bad" thing.

I personally bring my females up rather fast, to be about 6 or 7 feet at a year. This is not by any means "overfeeding" or "speed growing" them as 12 to 13 feet can easily be achieved in the same timeframe. But it is rapid. However, once they reach about 11 or 12 feet and begin to mature and their growth and metabolisms slow down I place them on maintenance diets that prevent the possibility of obesity. My males I feed moderately and bring them up very slowly and they are usually about 4 feet at a year old and 6 feet at year two. They are always healthy and fit but never thin or emaciated. I do feel this is healthier than stuffing them to grow fast.

Just one man's opinion.
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Agree with you David. I have the utmost respect for your opinions as well as Rob's. A lot of people do. That is exactly why I think it very important to be careful and deliberate in what you say on forums. No disrespect intended.
Bill

None taken. And the feeling is certainly mutual.
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

David hit it on the head. You will see rapid growth in the first two years and during that time, young burms need all the calories they can get....after that, things slow down. Bill, to answer your question, no, there are no current studies on caloric requirements of burms; simply emperical evidence that I have gained over many years of working with abandoned burms whose bloodwork shows evidence of obesity and other problems...to me, that's enough. Lifespans, breeding, etc are other precursors to evidence dictating what works and what doesn't. So, I don't think I answered your question but I'll continue to quip on the importance of proper diet and proper intervals of feeding.

>>Naturally there are no groups of studies, each comprised of hundreds of test subject burmese that have been conducted or are being conducted that can prove conclusively one way or the other what would affect the lifespans of burmese in terms of their diets. But.... I think it falls within the perimeters of common sense that to overfeed ANY animal could and likely would lead to health issues and by implication directly to shortened lifespans.
>>
>>Also, while not scientifically conclusive I do lend credence to information that is the byproduct of individual observation or personal knowledge gleaned from years of "hand's-on experience". I know when I see better results in my own animals and I would not hesitate to base my advice upon this experience or "knowledge". So I for the most part agree with Rob on this one. While I do not feel it will do the snake any harm to give him larger meals now and then I would agree that it should not be a weekly practice well into the adult years of the snake. Their metabolisms slow down incredibly after their second year of life and even just a little more food with frequency, which would be readily accepted by any opportunistic burmese, can lead to too much stored up fat in their bodies and around their organs. For females that breed every year this is not such a "bad" thing.
>>
>>I personally bring my females up rather fast, to be about 6 or 7 feet at a year. This is not by any means "overfeeding" or "speed growing" them as 12 to 13 feet can easily be achieved in the same timeframe. But it is rapid. However, once they reach about 11 or 12 feet and begin to mature and their growth and metabolisms slow down I place them on maintenance diets that prevent the possibility of obesity. My males I feed moderately and bring them up very slowly and they are usually about 4 feet at a year old and 6 feet at year two. They are always healthy and fit but never thin or emaciated. I do feel this is healthier than stuffing them to grow fast.
>>
>>Just one man's opinion.
>>-----
>>David Beauchemin
>>High End Herps.Inc
>>http://HighEndHerps.com
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Nice to read a message from someone who knows what they are talking about. I have quite a few snakes myself incliding four burms (smallest a 12 foot 3yr old female). Yes it is a small male for its age but obviously well cared for and probably content with its feeding habits as no agressive tendancies mentioned which may have pointed to a hungry or underfed snake.My youngest female is happilly growing quite quickly on 1 large rabbit or 2 large rats a week but she did go about 4 months quite recently without eating but i was not concerned. The reader that you replied to will probably find that all of a sudden their snake will take a mad growing spurt and increase in size quite quickly in a short period of time. I have found this with some of my other burmese.Plenty of excersise and regular feeding habits may help to induce larger and more regular feeding to increase size but at the end of the day a healthy specemin is all that matters.
Good luck

Ok thanks guys for all the expert knowledge and I am def. not as concerned..by no means am I a newbie in the reptile feild I just need some other advice...anything on the sexing aspect I talked about?

thanks again

Mike
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3 American Alligators
1.0 Albino Burm
1.0 Green Tree Python
0.1 Veild Chameleon
1.0 Red Eyed Tree Frog
1.0 Bearded Dragon

"Never insult an Alligator until you have crossed the river"-oriental proverb

A 2 year old male burm that is 6 1/2 feet should have visible spurs on both sides of his vent that are approx 1/8th inch long. A female of the same age and size would have spurs so tiny and submerged that one would have to dig and pry into the recesses in this area to find them. Even giant female burmese have tiny, often hard to find spurs. Males are always detectible and visible.
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David Beauchemin
High End Herps.Inc
http://HighEndHerps.com

Well said David!!! From my experience with burms (not much) yes it's a small for it's age. Again I'm now rather informed. As for large meals...Doesn't seem to do them any harm in the wild and they are actually made to do so. I hate using the term wild because a captive environment is FAR from the wild and will never be the same. David pretty much took the rest out of my mouth.
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

Well thank you very much David it looks like I have a male on my hands...seeing that the spurs are very visible about almost 1/8 long exactly...hope I can find a good looking female for him...Thanks again everyone for the feedback..

Mike
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3 American Alligators
1.0 Albino Burm
1.0 Green Tree Python
0.1 Veild Chameleon
1.0 Red Eyed Tree Frog
1.0 Bearded Dragon

"Never insult an Alligator until you have crossed the river"-oriental proverb