Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just had a boa born with a bad kink in the tail. what should I do. If it should be detroyed how do I do that. the kink is pretty bad

ITs hard to say without seeing the kink, but if you feel that it would not be able to live a normal or comfortable life you may want to consider destroying it. You could always go to a vet to put it down, but since snakes are cold blooded putting them in a freezer is also considered humane.
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0.1 Het Albino
1.0 DH-Sunglow

Sorry, but the whole put them in the freezer routine is garbage. It still takes them awhile to die. If the kink is so bad, do the right thing and lop their heads off with a pair of clippers. It's instant and it's part of producing babies. Don't fall for the whole "put them in the freezer routine" as that is only for people who don't have the stomach to do the right thing the first time.

Sorry for the gripe but it's inhumane in my opinion compared to other viable options.

Griz

I guess i was mistaken, I've never had to kill a snake, but i've always heard freezing was a good method. What are the better methods? I know Co2 for rats, would that work for a snake?
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0.1 Het Albino
1.0 DH-Sunglow

That would work fine too. All of my rats come frozen so I do not have to worry about a CO2 setup but it would work just fine and might just be the best overall method.

Griz

Putting them in the fridge is far more humane. In the freezer their body and or blood would start to crystalize before death. EXTREMELY painful. imagine having frozen blood crystals flowing throw your veines.

Joe

Really depends on the kink, is it post vent? Those that are post vent can be non-detrimental to the snake. I had two BRB's a few years back with "bad" kinks just past the vent, one was like it was folded in half. Both ate and grew just fine. And in both cases the kink mostly went away with growth. They were eventually sold at half price to a couple of buyers who had no intent to breed and were quite happy to get them so cheaply. And yes, I fully disclosed medical history.

This is NOT to say yours are OK, pics would really help here.

IMHO, I'd have to agree, the whole freezer thing is NOT humane. Quick complete euthanasia is preferable. I've seen snakes with head lopped off still moving mouth for some time. IMO complete crushing blow to skull would be quickest way to dispatch. I know, seems awful, but it is part of breeding. So far I've never had to put one down, but I also know it's just a matter of time!! Keep rolling the breeding dice and they'll come up (you know what) eventually.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.15 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

One option (freezer) is a slow sleep util death.
The other options are violent. Don't let anyone fool you into believing that violence is a necessity when Boa breeding..
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sounddjinn@yahoo.com

Things always get cloudy, just before transformation.

You, my friend, are sorely mistaken. A quick blow to the head is much more humane then allowing this animal to slowly freeze to death. I simply cannot imagine you just said that. Good grief....

I never mentioned "humane". I was talking about violence. Violence affects both parties, not just the animal. It is a fact that cutting off, or bashing the head is not necessary. It is a fact that Boa breeding does not require violence.

The definition of "humane" is: Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion: a humane judge.
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sounddjinn@yahoo.com

Things always get cloudy, just before transformation.

Violence is an act of abuse. What we are doing is an act of kindness. Putting the animal down with no pain. Instant, painless death. What more could you ask for?

Being a man is doing what is right regardless of your personal feelings. It's not counting on others to bail you out simply because you don't have the stomach to do it yourself. Go ahead and line the pockets of your vet, that is at least better than freezing. But for you to consider this an act of violence is nothing short of pathetic actually.

Griz

*consider that it might unkink at some point on it's own, if not too severe.
*consider the life that animal would have if left to live, would it be in pain or otherwize suffer?

*consider the suffering of an especially cold blooded animal freezing to death, snakes have a similar nervous system to people, they suffer. How is freezing a snake humane?
*consider what it's like to have you skull crushed to death, and how pleasant that is.
*consider what it would be like to be put down humanely with a shot at the vet, becoming unconscious, lights out.

If you put it down, take it to the vet and do it the humane way with a painless barbiturate OD. Freezing to death or having your skull bashed in are not humane.

Caden

How many of you HONESTLY that keep saying take it to a vet would spend $95 to have the vet put down a boa???

to pass as painlessly as possible.

Joe

Sorry Joe, but people would have to question your sanity or your intelligence, one or the other. I do not mean that as a slight but at some point you have to be realistic.

Griz

I would prefer to pay a vet to humanely put a creature down than do it myself...Not a slight but i would consider it $ well spent. It would cost what 25-35 bucks to put a newborn boa down. Heck, if you have a reg vet who you have a good relationship with it might be on the house. It would take what 5cc's of morphine?

Joe

I live in California and the only reptile vet around here has a higher vet visit charge than the vet for my dogs. in California it is ILLEGAL for vet to give back dogs or cats that they put down. They do not want dogs or cats being buried all over the state. They wil cremate for free. I am sure with reptiles the vet just tosses them in the garbage.

What part of Calif are you in. I know several Vets out that way. I may be able to hook you up with one that won't charge as much.

One more thing. I used to work at an Emergency Vet Clinic. Now it seemed like, at least, 2 or 3 times a week a person would drop off an injured or dying animal. Now these animals were never turned away. If the vet was able to help it he would. If not he would put it to sleep. There was no charge, because they just "dropped them off". They left them on the door step of the Clinic anonomously. Sometimes they'd leave them just inside the door. Now I'm not saying you should "drop off" your snake, but people have done these things before.

Where are you located that it costs that much to have a "new born" boa put down???????

Did you specify that this was a "new born" to the vet? Did you call just one vet or several and get different price quotes?

BTW Where I live it cost about 30 dollars to have "any" animal put down and you dispose of the body your self. They dispose of the body for an extra 10 dollars. Unless you're talking about a horse or some other "extremely large" animal. Then it might cost 95 plus haul away charges.

YES, I would pay to have a "normal" boa humanely put to sleep. Yeah, I'm probably a bit "crazy" too, when it comes to my animals.

I just couldn't smash it head or cut it's head off. I just wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it.

To each his own I reckon. If you truly would pay the money to have one put down then kudos to you. Doesn't mean I agree with it but at least you are not freezing them.

Griz

Can not the same gas used to put down rats also put down a boa? Seems it would be a cheaper way to go.
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Delusions of Grandeur feed the EGO...

King
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Frank Roberts
R&R Herpetological Frank Roberts & John Rodriguez
Roberts'Realm of Reptile Research

What does NORMAL BCI have to do with it? Are you willing to pay more to put down a sunglow?

Here's a link that may be useful.

Paul Hollander

American Verterinary Medical Association report

....
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Frank Roberts
R&R Herpetological Frank Roberts & John Rodriguez
Roberts'Realm of Reptile Research

Interesting report, if you have the stomach for it, thanks for posting it. Is that the latest report from the AVMA? It said a few pertinent things:

As for decapitation, 2nd column, P.687, 2nd paragraph (physical methods), it says after decapitation other animals die from stopping of the blood supply. In reptiles it says after decapitation you have to pith them as well, because reptiles have more tolerance for "hypoxic and hypotensive conditions." In other words they don't necessarily die from being decapitated, you have to physically turn their brain to mush with an nstrument in their cranial cavity, after you cut their heads off, for them to die.

As for freesing, 2nd column, P.687, 2nd to the last paragraph (cooling), it says that even cooling reptiles to make them immobile is considered "inapropriate and inhumane", and freezing them is "not recommended".

It also says that CO2 is ok in the right proportions. It does say that consciousness is rapid but death may be prolonged in reptiles.

Certainly don't bash the head in of a reptile or any animal to kill it, don't cut their heads off unless you know how to and are willing to immediately pith them, and don't freeze them. These are inhumane. I understand you can buy a CO2 canister everywhere paintball supplies are sold. Me personally, I am going to the vet. I think you should too. But, if you are not going to do that please get the CO2 method happening.

Caden

The thread on euthanasia caused me to google the topic and I found this from the Canadian Council On Animal Care. Last paragraph.

Link

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Linda Hedgpeth
lindafh@frontiernet.net
Sierra Serpents

Here's what I've found on various sites, not just for "animal" euthanasia, which includes mammals and can be very different...

Freezing isn't really humane for reptiles. Because reptiles are coldblooded, they can survive (and thus be conscious) much lower temperatures than mammals. Ice crystals forming in the tissues would be very painful. Reptiles aren't mammals, and probably don't have the sensation of wanting to fall asleep before succumbing to hypothermia - mammals can die of hypothermia if their body temperatures drop a measly few degrees. Reptiles get slower and slower the colder they get, but that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't awake at all at the point where ice crystals start to form. Because of that possibility of consciousness.... erg, I wouldn't want to feel my muscles turning to ice, or subject an animal to that possibility.

Beheading isn't really humane either - others have mentioned noticing decapitated reptile heads moving around for a while after decapitation - again because of the slower metabolism, the reptile brain can survive longer without oxygen than mammals. So a beheaded snake could probably feel quite a bit of pain for a few minutes after the decapitation. Because of the (disgusting) massive "rattler roundups" where many snakes are decapitated, unfortunately there have been MANY observations of snakes appearing to look around and move their heads many minutes after decapitation.

CO2 euthanasia, once more because of reptiles' slow metabolisms, could be considered ineffective and somewhat inhumane as well. Again, reptiles can survive longer on less amounts of oxygen than mammals, so while CO2 euthanasia is humane for rats, a snake would take much longer to "suffocate", and would probably be conscious during suffocation since it's a much more drawn out process in reptiles.

The only method I found while researching the subject that was considered "instantaneous" and therefore humane (OTHER THAN VETERINARY CHEMICAL EUTHANASIA) would be immediate destruction of the brain. It seems to be the most gruesome, but reptiles are very hardy. Destruction of the brain tissue by crushing the head in a very abrupt manner or (read this on another site) quicky inserting a metal object into the brain case to destroy the brain tissue would be the swiftest, most effective, least traumatic means of euthanasia after injected chemical euthanasia, leaving the least amount of possibility of the snake being conscious during it's demise.

However, people will do what they feel most comfortable doing. The decision isn't an easy one, and ethically, subjecting an animal to a few moments of possible discomfort (using any of the above methods) might spare a lifetime of debilitating pain in the case of a severe deformaty.

I felt that destruction of the brain would be the most humane method of euthanasia for a reptile but you explained it much better than I did!!

I totally understand others not liking or not being able to dispatch any animal themselves. Or even feeling it's a violent act. For those that are unable or unwilling to dispatch the snake themselves, a trip to the vet is a must. It's a product of becoming a society where most of our food is purchased at a store nicely cleaned and wrapped. Many would not know where to begin if they were put in a position where the had to kill and clean their own food.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling
www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
10.22 BRB
10.15 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

np