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JETZEN wrote:
>>Has anyone seen the new 2006 Judd-&-Krysco report regarding the apalachicola? i don't think the report is very convincing. what do you think?
Link

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

One of these days I'm gonna learn how to use this thing -(

I read the article. I'm not sure about the bio-speak, statistics, and DNA science. However, IF I understand their reasoning correctly, it seems the case for L. g. meansi is strong. I would prefer to see "goini" but thats not gonna happen. In any case, its about time the distinctly different (and beautiful) Apalachicola Kingsnakes regained suspecies status.

Of course you know what this means - Peterson has to do a 4th edition!

Regards,

John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

i have not read the link yet but it would seem like a lot of work just to achieve the dubious distinction of subspecies...i will have to read first before i comment further. thanks for the link.
daveb

J.T.Collins @ CNAH here is part of what he wrote-

"CNAH recognizes L.g.meansi on it's web site checklist for now--we merely await it's demise in the near future, cheers"

Like i said b/4 im not convinced "meansi" is true separate sub.

The Apalachicola king in it's banded/striped/blotched/patternless forms is merely a variation eastern (L.g.getula), cheers

"Like i said b/4 im not convinced "meansi" is true separate sub.

The Apalachicola king in it's banded/striped/blotched/patternless forms is merely a variation eastern (L.g.getula), cheers"

I still disagree with this notion. There is TOO MUCH variability between the two. When raising up "pure" specimens of both you'll definately see the difference. I use the term "pure" loosely due to the flaming I expect from this post. lol. This is one of my favorite ssp. of kings and I've been keeping them for 15 years. Not everyone will agree with each other, but we all do agree these are some beautiful animals. I've been saying all along these snakes deserve sub-specific status, but I do think there is a bit of contradicting information in the study.

Brandon Osborne

Is it possible that the subspecies itself no longer exists, and only hybrids exist?

Anyway - what they look like really isn't something you can go on.

The California Newt and the Rough Skinned look very similar, but are different species. There's two species of frog that can not be distinguished apart as adults without killing them.

Taxonomical difference is all that matters, two completely different species (or subspecies) can look identical, and members of the same species (or subspecies) can look radically different.

What about cali? and thayeri? seems to me variablity is common in Lampropeltis, oh and let's not forget alterna and blairi they were once thought to be separate.

I think too different to be lumped in with Eastern Chains. If this is the argument, then you should put thayeri with greeri....then throw those in with alterna and blairi. Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone else's opinions. I believe these kings are as distinct as it gets. If we really want another debate, how about nigra? Couldn't they be a relic integrade between the eastern and the speckled?.....and splendida from a holbrooki and nigrita? I think someone should compair a NJ eastern with a ANF king for a real comparison. If they're the same, then I'll change my mind. I'm sure there are some integrades in the wild, but I firmly believe there are "pure" goini.....or meansi. Whatever they're calling them these days. It's all in the eye of the beholder.....and it's all speculation. I'm sure we will never know. lol. Thanks for the debate. And post some pics of those beautiful "goini" you have! I can't get enough.

Brandon Osborne

a book,
"Coloring/scale form,
Kingsnakes from everywhere in Florida vary enormously in dorsolateral pattern and coloration,and in the past many of these color/pattern variants were thought to be separate races. Typical eastern kingsnakes possess black to deep-brown dorsums patterned with with less than 30 narrow,white or yellow dorsal crossbands that split to form a chain-like pattern on their sides. Kingsnakes from the panhandle's Apalachicola Basin-which were once thought to be a separate subspecies known as L.g.goini-have much wider bands and blotches. Other kingsnakes found in the same area exhibit typical L.g.getula patterns,however,along with various combinations of blotched, striped,and patternless variants,and it is now recognized that both "goini" and the blotched and the striped kingsnakes living in the same range are actually merely pattern variants of L.g.getula"
Not arguing just showing what i believe, and I hope this makes sense to you.

hey jetzen-
i would be interested in the name author publisher and isbn # if you've got that information.
thanks
daveb

Snakes of Florida, 2nd ed. 2003, by Alan Tennant, i have found a few typos in it, very good reading anyway.

mucho thanks...i might have that on a shelf somewhere, best crack it open.
daveb

Brian Hubbs is coming out with an "up to date book" on kingsnakes. It is an exhaustive account similar to his mountain kingsnake book. His new book includes the most up to date revisions on getula and range maps, DNA tests, ect.

I hope some of you do not take the feild guide descriptions into account. I had a recent experience with the law in my state and keeeping florida kings. To make a long story short the field guide they used is outdated and now all floridana is legal in GA.

To some of you who do not know who Brian Hubbs is. He is thee most knowledgebale person on the ecology of kingsnakes. Knowbody knows more than him about finding them, habits and ranges .

i was beginning to wonder where you went off to.
keep us updated on this new book, sounds like it should be a thriller and provide a lot of food for thought on this forum.
daveb

I'm looking forward to Brian's new book i already have his Mt.king book and maybe he'll add a new twist to the apalachicola issue.

Regarding the getula out of that book, some of the pictures aren't even labeled correctly as well as the descriptions and scientific names. If anyone goes by the information in that book alone, I'm not surprised they are confused.

Brian Hubb's book has not been completed and published yet. I assume you are reffering to the feild guides mentioned and not Brian Hubbs's book. Please clarify which book you are reffering to.

My response was to Jetzen's post regarding Tennant's book.

typo's, big deal, it also has won the National Outdoor Book Award, bet you did'nt know that,lol!ha-ha!have any of your fav books won anything?hmmmmmm?

Yeah, I knew that. Overall I think it's great field guide too as I've got several copies. The typos I mentioned are on the getula and when people base their facts on those mistakes, they're spreading the wrong information. That's all.

Is it true you provided Dr.Means with a "goini" to plant in his trap? so he could fool the millions of people who watched that Snake Wranglers episode on the Nat.Geo. channel.
Not an attack just a simple question.

Touched a nerve there or what??? I never saw something get yanked so fast. Wonder what the big secret is really all about there? I wasn't really wondering until it got the big invisable yank. Maybe planting things to bolster the story is a big part of modern "science". The truth will just have to remain out there.

Sometimes the truth hurts, this "meansi" biz is B.S. same with the "Slowinski" biz, it looks likes taxonomic geniuses are paying more attention to people personalities than taxon.
But then taxonomy has always had that problem anyway.

Jetzen - could you post the reference?
Is it Markel 1990?
If not it looks like one I need!

Thanks

John D.
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

np
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

Those Apalachicola kings don't seem to differ much at all from L. getula getula, at least, not any more so than other invalidated types, like the Outer Banks kings. The supposed "pure" patternless variety doesn't even breed true. The belly pattern of some goini/meansi/whatever seems really weird to me, and is probably their most unique feature, not like anything I've seen in any other kind of kingsnake.

yup, they're different.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Are you saying that a patternless-X-patternless (apalachicola)may not produce all patternless?

Yeah, patternless x patternless doesn't produce all patternless. Female patternless are rare, but I've seen a bunch of them.

Ok, i guess i get it, only the patternless(mostly males)are true "meansi" all the rest are intergrades even if the intergrades have parents that are both patternless,hmmmmm??? that sounds awful confusing? oh-well the taxonomic geniuses'll figure it out, someday.

...is...
have Krysko and Means actually found a patternless (a.k.a. meansi)king that they describe during their studies???
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Mark asked:
>> have Krysko and Means actually found a patternless (a.k.a. meansi)king that they describe during their studies???

Krysko and Means did not find the type specimen - they have mearly built a case to define the ssp as separate using observable and DNA characteristics.

"The taxon name is a noun, named for Dr. D. Bruce Means in recognition of his discovery of the first known Eastern Apalachicola Lowlands kingsnake..." (Krysko and Means, 1966).

Figure 12 (in the article) shows the actual type specimen originally documented by Dr. Means.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

Mark, Bruce Means has found patternless specimens and the holotype in the new paper was found by him back in 1970. The paper states who found the holotype including the date and location where it was found.

"Apalachicola" is an Indian word for "the people on the other side." These guys are trying to rename this snake because they found it “on the other side” of the river?
We are led to believe amongst the gobblegook that the Apalachicola is Florida’s largest river (112 miles long), as if these snakes could have never traversed such a natural barrier. It is actually fed by a huge floodplain and is considered to have the greatest flow of any Florida river. The Saint Johns (285 miles long) is the longest. In fact, the Apalachicola was dredged and widened to a whopping 100 feet wide in 1946 to provide navigation.
From what I could decipher from the “nerd code” some guy named Means claims to be the first to ever describe an Apalachicola Lowlands Kingsnake, June 9, 1970.
This remarkable achievement in kingsnake history occurred from a specimen collected on the EAST side of the Apalachicola River.
The Apalachicola Kingsnake described and named in 1949 by Neil/Allen was based on specimens collected from the WEST side of the Apalachicola River.
Thanks must go out to these guys for re-describing THE EXACT SAME THING?
Seems to me they are confirming the fact that there is a separate animal from the Eastern Kingsnake and the Florida type, and it’s what we all know as a “Goini” or Blotched Kingsnake.
I don’t get the basis for invalidating what Allen/Neil knew, described, and had naming rights to in 1949. I take it as a slight to those guys who didn’t have DNA and grant money in the old days. Have some respect. These guys make a living off this stuff?

Thanks must go out to these guys for re-describing THE EXACT SAME THING?
Seems to me they are confirming the fact that there is a separate animal from the Eastern Kingsnake and the Florida type, and it’s what we all know as a “Goini” or Blotched Kingsnake.

The whole thing is based on a taxonomic technicality. The original Neill and Allen snakes were eastern x appalachicola intergrades (blotched). Therefore the name goini was originally assigned to a snake now recognized as an intergrade. Krysko took this opportunity to get his name in the books by assigning a new name to the real Appalachicola kings (the patternless snakes) rather than just reassigning the name goini to that population.
Taxonomically legal, yes. Was it the right thing to do in light of preserving taxonomic continuity? Certainly not.

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

How is it that when you breed a true patternless "Means" male to a patternless "Means" female (if you can find one) you get INTERGRADES- Blotched Kingsnakes. And these (100% hets?) when bred to each other gives you 100% INTERGRADES AGAIN- Blotched Kingsnakes. If and when you get a patternless it is usually (almost always) male, and they seem pop out randomly whether the parents are patternless or not. I have never seen a real 100% patternless female, like to hear from those that know for sure.

Finally someone with an intelligent question. I agree totally. I've seen only one partially patternless female......and that was one I produced a couple of years ago.

Brandon Osborne

Upscale - that is an excellent point! If your observation holds true it plays Hobb with K & J's conclusions. Shouldn't a true subspecies breed true? Maybe this should be brought to their attention!

Bravo!

John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

I was told by Bruce Means if you breed patternless to patternless, you get all patternless offspring. Keep in mind, your young, blotched individuals that look patternless as adults, are NOT really patternless. They are banded individuals.

As for patternless females, I have one as does Pierson Hill. If you'd like to see a pic, I'll find it and post it later.

When you breed patternless (Means) to patternless you get patternless. But patternless are really not patternless, they are really banded? So therefore any snake that looks like a “Means” is actually a Banded individual? Sounds like there is nothing wrong with calling all of them Blotched Kingsnakes, and again, confirms what was described back in 1949. Just what the heck are they describing? Is it patternless or banded or blotched? What new information are they contributing?
I strongly disagree that breeding patternless to patternless gives you all patternless, but I would say you do get all Blotched Kings. And I doubt half your patternless will be female. That should happen, but it doesn’t.
Here’s a female, not exactly completely patternless. Seems pretty typical of a “patternless” female, though.

True patternless are in fact patternless when they hatch as they have no bands/no blotches. When these are bred to each other, supposedly you get all true patternless offspring.

The "not true" patternless are blotched/banded when they hatch. As they age, they grow lighter and can look patternless as adults even though they are not.

WWY
(O)(O)
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np
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

While discussing their rationale for proposing meansi as a ssp, Krysco & Judd make the following statement:

"Our suggestion that the eastern United States populations of L. getula constitute a distinct species (as based on the ASC) is in agreement with the DSC and ESC, because these populations form a well-supported (100%)monophyletic group" (Krysco & Judd 2006).

They add that they are not proposing such a change, rather that their analysis could support such a notion under some definitions of species.

Don't you just love this stuff?

Thanks to Jetzen for bringing this to our attention!

Regards,

John D

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

uhhhhh, my "library" is in the other room, which species concept is the "asc" and what does it entail? i can't worry about the other concepts until i have the first one in grasp and maybe by then i will have moved to the next room.

wow several good posts in this forum this week, what is going on?
daveb