Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is my theory. It holds for counties such as Val Verde and Terrell where there are numerous rock cuts frequently hunted. It is a different situation in Brewster/Presido/Jeff Davis counties.
In Jeff Davis and Brewster there are cuts which are hunted and which produce, but they don't have the vast numbers of collectors which are found in other areas.

Think of the rock cuts by the roads as artificial reefs, created by man and totally unnatural. Over the years the rains have washed out some if the dirt from the fissures, giving animals a place to live. It was a marvellous place for rodents, lizards, snakes and other animals to live. They were micro-habitats.

In the 70's there were plenty of alterna to be found, and most of them were found on the pavement. There was very little spotlighting in the 70's.

From the late 70's through '86 they were protected. They were still found in good numbers, but there were far fewer collectors coming down because of the possibility of stiff fines.

In the 90's the heavy hunting was once again in full swing. People were driving and spotlighting, many were walking the cuts. Some areas, such as Palma Draw and Hwy. 277 had been hunted moderately or lightly and were still loaded with critters. In the early 90's both areas began to be hunted heavily. Often there were 7-10 cars hunting a 7 mile stretch around Palma Draw and Lozier Canyon. It was nothing to see 12-18 cars on Hwy. 277 hunting the 19 miles from Carruthers Creek to Buffalo Creek. On 277 they were pulling off great numbers of large snakes. 34-36" females and 36-40" males were not uncommon.

Ten to Twenty years ago the annual alterna take statewide was probably 170-225 snakes. Now it is probably 50-60.

My theory is that these "artificial reefs" have been overcollected. In part it is due to the increased traffic; twenty years ago the only traffic on Hwy. 90 or Hwy. 377 after dark was herpers or the occasional rancher heading home. Now it is constant traffic, much of it 18 wheelers and few snakes can go on the road and make it off again.

They main reason though is the overcollection. The breeding stock which had had many years to establish itself had been taken away. It takes time for new breeding stock to establish itself, and they don't have the opportunity. Even the small stuff is taken, not given a chance to grow to adulthood and reproduce itself.

I'm not pointing fingers or giving blame, just stating what I see as the primary reason for fewer snakes being taken.

These wonderful animals cover a range of perhaps 50,000 sq. miles and we are basically hunting 100 miles of 60' wide highway. While we are not affecting overall numbers, we are decimating small localized areas. Don't blame it on the weather. Those who have been there for 20-30 years know that there are annual variations, but the populations have always been there. Val Verde and Terrell counties are coming off several years of good rains. If it were the weather, the snakes would be there now.

Is there anything to be done about it? Who knows. Perhaps the lack of snakes and the increased cost of finding them will result in fewer hunters putting in less time - this should help.

With that said, good luck and good herping.
Herping The Trans Pecos

John, you're right about less collectors being out there. But I think the snakes are still there in numbers and the lack of collectors makes it appear that the numbers are low. For example, last year when I was down the only people who collected any were myself and Shannon on 277 that week. The conditions were what you would call less that prime with the temperature at 90-95 degrees at midnight. Yet I found two and Shannon found one. Because of the less than prime conditions anyone else out there chose to call it quits very early in the night. There was also a time when collectors would be out every night in descent numbers. This is no longer the case because they feel the barometric pressure is not right, the moon is shining, the wind conditions are not good ect.. That theory is just that, theory. I've found more animals in less than optimal conditions than I have in optimal. Not just in texas but everywhere. If it were like it was in 87'or 88' when we were out there and almost every cut from the Casablanca Motel to Sanderson had a collector pass it every few minutes we would see a lot of snakes being caught. But those days are over. Why? Who knows. Maybe because the colubrid market gave way to designer boas and pythons some time ago or just because the prices of alterna are not what they used to be so people can't see the justification in the travel expense. I myself do it for the pleasure of the experience and nothing more. In any case there are still a few of us left but not as many at the same given time down there.

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Steve W.

While we are not affecting overall numbers, we are decimating small localized areas.

I agree with this sentiment. We are overcollecting small transects within the range of this species.

Those who have been there for 20-30 years know that there are annual variations, but the populations have always been there.

I think a lot of alterna were collected last year, compared to the years before (and this one). I don't know that we have good enough data to suggest that the lack of snakes this year is due to overcollection, however. There has been a lack of snakes in general, not just alterna.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Posted by: chrish at Wed Jun 14 17:14:41 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I think a lot of alterna were collected last year, compared to the years before (and this one). I don't know that we have good enough data to suggest that the lack of snakes this year is due to overcollection, however. There has been a lack of snakes in general, not just alterna.
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Again, can this be to the lack of collectors? Realisticly there is no guarantee that everyone is going to score anything significant at all . Be it an alterna or snakes in general. It still has a lot to do with luck and being at the right place at the right time. We only see the snakes that choose to surface from the micro-habitat we call rock cuts. They actually never have to leave the network under the surface. Just a thought.
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Steve W.

I still remain suprised when alterna collectors say "we are over collecting certain areas". Knowing how alterna operate, and knowing specific weather patterns that bring them out, and the biggest thing: REALIZING THE MANY PLACES THEY HAVE IN WHICH TO HIDE, how can any of you even think that these animals are being OVERCOLLECTED, even in these small areas? Chis, I totally disagree with your statemnt, as well as anybody's that alterna are being overcollected. That is a load of crap! You can all go to the school of John Hollister and look at his data over the last thirty years or so of collecting and look carefully. You will then realize that these snakes don't just come out any night and all night. Needless to say, a lot of collectors go out when they can, and not neccesarily when the "weather is right", so prime time collecting is done only by those who can be out there and timing is all so important as we all know!

Wayne

>You can all go to the school of John Hollister and look at his data over the last thirty years or so of collecting and look carefully.<

Wayne, your right about this. LOL Maybe thirty years of collecting numerous snake is creeping up on his conscience. Just a thought.

P.S. John I would collect more if I were in your position too.
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Steve W.

I HEARD THAT!!!

Hey Wayne........At least you won't have anyone accusing you of pillaging the grayband populations on the River Road.....ouch! On another note, has anyone actually scientifically documented that the size of collected alterna adults has decreased over the years? If so, that could be an indicator that populations in heavily hunted locales are under pressure.

Leave the statistics to us Texas collectors Florida boy! Now get out and collect some pigs for me!

Wayne

I think this year is not optimal due to the lack of rain and strange weather patterns. I also think the pressure does play a small part as well. If it is high then yeah sure you get the occasional male alterna crawling around. If it is lower then you see more folks coming back to the motels with all types of animals.

I am not an expert by any means. But it is no secret that South Texas and West Texas have been slow for all types of reptiles.

Best Wishes,

Steven

When I was out there there in May there were not very many hunters at all. the price of gas and low prices of the animals has likely kept people at home and caused some hunters to even carpool 4 in a car. the fact is I do not think that in May there were very many Man-hours hunting the cuts. I am sure that there were many snakes getting away so to speak. I think the overcollecting is having an influence but it may not be the main reason we are hearing of so little activity this year. Only those with a real passion for finding alterna are out there, there was even a couple of groups really focused on looking for leps, I guess this may have to do somewhat with the higher dollar value Leps carry as compared to alterna.

I think the decline in reported finds may actually be under hunting. One way to try to figure it out independant of hunting variables would be to collect data on alterna being run over by traffic. alterna deaths from vehicle traffic, discoverded by hunters would be a rather random occurance, somewhat independant from the number of hunters, and it may be vald to try to document DOR alterna for the time period, and see if fewer DOR alternas are being seen per man hour. theoretically if there are fewer DOR's and not to mention increased traffic flow then there is likely pressure on the population. In 10 years I have found 2 dor's one in langtry in 1999 and one in 2002 (I would have to research my memory and records to figure out the number of hours). If anyone is interested in posting a request on the forum in an effort to collect data on DOR alternas found from 1995 to 2005 maybe we can get some idea of what is going on in the population from it?

anyway I do think that the reduced number of hunters will result in better stock in the coming years. lets also be patient and see what happens in June, There should be lots of hunters out there turning up some nice alterna, it could be a banner year!

Jim

I am with Chrish, in that this year is just due to a general lack of snakes. Hell, I have found more alterna then baird's this year, and just as many subocs. I have yet to see a live coachwhip on the road on the way out to Langtry, Juno, 277 or all the way to black gap. I have logged a grand TOTAL of 5 DOR's on 90 and 0 from carathur's to buffalo. While alterna populations might be stressed, I do not think that is the reason very few have been found this year. Just last year numerous people had mulitple nights on 90, and at least one three alterna night on 277.

I'm not talking about this year, or last year, or next year. I'm talking about a downward trend over the past 15 years or so. Yes, the 90's were good for hwy 277, but it was not a known locality except to a very few of us before that. Palma Draw used to be hunted by myself and Don Duncan - others blew through the area headed elsewhere. Once Palma became known, it was hit hard. I used to see a snake pretty much every night I hunted there. How I can hunt it for a week and see nothing.
The high plateau west of Langtry is another area that people blew through. The first time I hit it seriously I found 3 adult females on the same pass. This is the area from the top of the big hill about 4 miles W. of langtry to about 10 miles W. of Langtry. The next night another herper saw me there and was VERY ovbious about herping. As a result other herpers saw him, and were not as quitet about protecting the area and it got hit hard. Now I doubt I'd find a snake a week there.

Yes, there are optimum conditions. I've kept detailed notes for over 30 years on the alterna I've found. I know which wind is best. I've checked the barometric pressure for the periods during which numerous alterna were caught so I know the best range. BUT I have caught them on crappy nights too - full moon, north winds, after rains, during rains, cold, wet.

There are as many hunter-nights now as there were then but with probably 1/4 the amount being found. I've kept (mentally) track of the reported alterna found for many years. Trust me, the numbers have not been there for at least 6 years. The numbers in the mid-90's were boosed by heavy hunting of hwy 277, a new area. There have also been other areas opened up to general knowledge such as Iraan, Crockett County and other areas.

The river road vaires from year to year but has overall stayed constant. This is because it is the collection of transient snakes, not the collection of permanent colonies. Black Gap is the same way.

I'm sure traffic plays a serious part in the decline but not as much as collecting. Put them together and a snake showing itself is likely to be either collected or run over.

Another factor is ringtail cats. They used to be trapped for their pelts. in the 90's trapping of them pretty much stopped. Now they inhabit many of the rock cuts in which the snakes were living. Ringtails are a fierce predator. They eat not only the snakes but the lizards and rodents on which the snakes feed.

I say again, it will take something major for the roadside populations to get back to the point where over 200 alterna can be found in a year (or even 100), as well as the other species. Subocs are weird. Some years I've seen 50 or 60, some years just a couple, but their populations are also down. As are bairdi, lepidus and other prime collecables.

I haven't figured how many nights I've spent collecting Val Verde and Terrell counties, much less the other areas, but I'd guess it to be well over 300 nights. I've had periods when I've gone 4-6 nights without seeing an alterna, then other nights when I've found 3 or 4. 2 alterna nights used to be common for most of the hunters. Now it is a big deal when ONE hunter finds 2, even if nobody else has found a thing.

I guess my luck has just been good because i've found more alterna in the last ten years in ValVerde Co. than ever before. Over all i've spent approx. 82 nights in ValVerde and come up with 23 snakes. Hopefully Fish & Game does not take any of the negative "records" to heart if they monitor these boards.
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Steve W.

I remember your early years. You came down with a bunch of novices and really didn't know how or where to hunt. I guess you have improved with age - must be the association with Assetto.

I'm a little more patient than I used to be. Plus early on Rob used to run over the snakes(light phase Juno)as his reflexes were slow when I yelled stop. Damn him. And back then he would fall asleep with a Q-Beam in his hand and I would not know until I noticed it was not moving up or down. lol
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Steve W.

> I remember your early years. You came down with a bunch of novices and really didn't know how or where to hunt. <

Johnny, I was the only person who had ever been field collecting for snakes. Rob was always a turtle guy and the others were snake purchasers, not field collectors. If you remember, I was the only one out of the four of us to score an alterna the first time out. Lots of experience along with even more luck did the trick. To this day, i've never sold a single alterna that i've caught. It's not about money or value. It's about the thrill of shining a light on one. Back then there was a lot of wheeling and dealing going on during the day at the various motel rooms in DelRio and Comstock. Now that you don't get $500-$1000 for a Juno snake many people choose not to collect at all anymore. This all has to be factored in as to why alterna are not collected in the same numbers as they used to be. There used to be a constant flow of collectors and that is gone. Which is actually a good thing.
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Steve W.

hey, john.....member that auction you had at the kettle???

that's right....

Dont judge the year to quickly. I know of 9 snakes cought this year all over west texas. 2 Black Gap, 2 juno, 1 pandale dirt, 2 sanderson, one between marathon and sanderson, 1 20 mile south of alpine, and another in langtry area. As for the lack of numbers of all snakes " Could it be Commercial Collecting"? How many snakes do you need from one locallity? 1-2 pair tops. Some people pick up everything that they see on or near the road. Is that necessary? When and only when everyone has filled their closets and herp rooms to the brim with snakes will the numbers of wild animals be able to return to the numbers seen in the 80's and 90's! Its a shame to think of it that way but its the truth. Matt

Commercial collecting would most likely have an impact. But are there that many commercial collectors hitting ValVerde Co. or the surrounding counties? I don't know. But they would probably do better in south texas at the right time if they're looking for numbers. Either way, less collectors = less snakes caught overall.
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Steve W.

What would be the ratio of people who pick snakes up and sell them, to people who pick up snakes and keep them for themselves. Chances are persons who pick up and sell will take more from hunting areas than others. I for one dont like to sell what I bag, I only collect for personal reasons and only a few from each locallity. Matt

Until a few years ago I took every alterna i found. Let's face it, it is hard not to. On other species I kept them only if I needed them or a friend had asked me to keep an eye out for one.
Yes, there are people who take everything they see. "I need to pay for the trip" isn't a good reason to me for doing such.

In the past 5 years I haven't kept any of the alterna I've seen. Be assured that if I see a really good one, it is in the bag.

As for commercial collectors hitting the area, they soon learn that there is a net loss and go elsewhere. The first albino suboc was picked up by someone who was told he could make money collecting snakes in Val Verde county. He did, but it wasn't a repeat.

>What would be the ratio of people who pick snakes up and sell them, to people who pick up snakes and keep them for themselves. Chances are persons who pick up and sell will take more from hunting areas than others.<

Unfortunately true<

> I for one dont like to sell what I bag, I only collect for personal reasons and only a few from each locallity.<

Thats the way it should be. I'm with you on that. Although I will pick up something for a friend if asked and it's within reason.

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Steve W.

yes i believe that a bob from del rio caught 14 in one night this year. 5 of them where albino and one of them had four heads. other than that i think he has caught a total of 57 this year in 20 nights.

but seriously, i am sure that road hunting has an impact on size and most likely on numbers, but i doubt people that really enjoy the hunt and the find more than the taking of the animal, have the ability to release a captured alterna. I know that some in the past have, but for many it would be a very hard decession to "release" such a cool animal. Personally I have found only one and am sure that I would keep any I find at the end of the month.

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www.southtexasherps.com

The numbers that I stated earlier were almost all from different People. Only 2 of the individuals, caught more than one this year. Matt

4 heads....wow that must have been in boy's town

While I am sure that offers a measure of personal satisfaction, what about the risk of introducing pathogens / parasites?

I think that once you take it home and cage it up, it is a full time resident myself.

Lance

yea....we all know about those guys.....how many snakes do you need.....there is a mental condition called hoarding...you usually hear about these cat or dog people that "rescue"every dog or cat they can....but they can't take care of them all....i've seen the same behavior in herpers....my opinion is if you have to keep MULTIPLE snakes in one cage or you have die-offs in your collection....ya got too many...

Add 2 sheffields 1 more langtry and 1 iraan.
1 dor 277 north of loma.

So a few have been taken this year. I imagine this number will
go up by the end of the month. The dark of the moon hit us with less than favorable weather.

Best Wishes,

Steven

9 snakes this year? Wow!!!! Gee!!!
pardon me if that sounds a bit sarcastic, but it was meant to. given the numbers of hunters that is what? 1 per 30 hunter nights?
1980: 7 in 4 nights
1982 20 by June 17
1987 5 in May
1988 10 in May
1989 13 by June 15
1990 6 by June 3
1991 2 in May
1992 2 by June 15
1993 12 by June 15 including one on April 18

That isn't every year and it isn't every alterna, but those were collected by just one person - ME. Does a total of 9 for this year sound all that impressive?

Hey John,
Most of what you say makes sense but, the fly in the buttermilk is the fact that the overall numbers of snakes including those not normally collected and even in areas where there in not a lot of traffic such as River Rd., are down. Like you, I have been collecting the Trans Pecos for over 30 years and when I compare my notes from say, the 80's to the past three years, if you compare the same night of the month or the same type weather conditions, same time in the moon phase, any way I look at it the numbers are down. Since I don't expect to see a lot of alterna, I first noticed it more in things like atrox, sonora and hypsiglena and one most obvious declines is brevis.
Just something to think about.
Later
Rick

Hi Rick, what you say is true about the overall amound of snakes in general. It's all across the board in general. I remember seeing more garter snakes on Juno and 277 but lately none to speak of.

P.S. The celaenops are growing fast. They're about 15 inches long now. Later.
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Steve W.

I had my trip, and I got an alterna (the 118 animal I posted about earlier)-so I'm happy! But now that you mention it, some animals did seem scarce. Brevis and hypsiglena especially-1 and 2 respectively in 9 nights. Saw more subocs than ever, however (6).

As was mentioned earlier, the weather, even further west where we were, was not optimal.

Brad Chambers

CAUSE YOU AIN'T WORKIN' AT SAMBO'S...................

Thank you, Bob.
We can always count on you for the pithy and meaningful.
Why are you so worried about BBQ? Shouldn't you be on Metamucil by now?

He doesn't need it. He has a doctor thats a hot chick examining his cavities.
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Steve W.

...climate change and its effects on small vertebrate species? It's one of the hottest topics in conservation biology at this time. The changes may be subtle (albeit inperceptable to us, but are nevertheless affecting pressures on ecosystems that are resulting in dramatic shifts in species composition and population sizes. Something to think about in any case.

2 years ago i hunted the river road pretty hard. I had heard that 20 snake nights were not too uncommon. The first three nights I saw a handful of subocs. Conditions were extrememly hot, although it was slightly humid. I took off to other more fruitful areas, but returned when I saw the river get rain. The first night was perfect. Close to a 1/4 inch of rain fell during the day, the clouds cleared , and the sun was back out for a few hours before dark. Temps were in the low 80s at twilight. I figured that this would be a perfect night, but all we saw were a blacktail, and a few atrox, other small stuff too. Two other herpers on the road that night with similar results. The next night by all accounts was ideal. A southwest wind, nice temps, storms brewing in the vicinity. Even some old experts commented about how perfect it felt. We saw a total of 4-5 snakes mostly hypsi's. One of the other guys got skunked, the other one nearly as bad. The real old timer said that he had never been skunked on the river in 20 years. He said that overall numbers there had been declining for several years. He seemed to think that the persisting drought was the cause of the scarcity of snakes.

John! Want to play a little trivia? Who was there when you were on a cut holding on to the last five inches of a Alterna all the wile burning a hole in your front seat with your spotlite? Long time no see my friend!!!

And I finally gave up and let go of the tail, snake went into the hole. It was just an adult light phase male, had no use for it.
So, when ya coming down this year?

Its good to here from you john! Hope your doing well! Unfortuinatly I wont be coming for the first time in 20 years because I have a new job. Got to put in my year first before vacation. (sucks)! Adam Sweetman was thinking abought a possible short trip. I think its abought time one of us Kansas boys came to show you how its done!!LOL I shouldn't talk so big since between Me,Adam Sweetman,Brad Anderson,Claudie Church,and John Fraiser, we still havn't caught as many as you!!! Good luck this year. Talk to you soon ShawnL

time for some Kansas boys to come down? The way I hear it Kansas boys are taking over Sanderson and plan to rename it "Wichta del sul"

Hey, I'm new to this forum (but not to snakes) and it seems like everyone knows each other on here, but I wanted to pipe in a comment. I agree with JohnOH, but I'm no expert on exactly what affects species populations, so it's just an opinion. To me, it seems a little greedy to constantly be taking from nature and never giving back. What if we all committed to releasing two captive bred babies (locale specific of course), for every one we took? Maybe it's not feasible or just a stupid idea, but just brainstorming...Maybe they wouldn't have a chance, although it seems to me they should if released at the right time and place, but at least we'd be putting forth the effort to give nature back the awesome snakes she has provided us. Just a thought...

-Max-

Releasing captive babies is without question a huge mistake. alterna populations are not in question here the truth is that the habitat is so huge, and collecting area so small that collecting pressures would not strain the overall population in west texas much at all. Seeding the cuts with captive babies is un nessisary would affect the natural gene pool in a very negative way, and possibly risk introducing foreign disease into the wild population. To put int in simple terms it would be like stocking a pond already full of bass with additional farm raised bass, there would be no positive effect on the population. I believe that back 20 or 30 years ago there were more snakes living near the roads. The roads were new, and traffic was light, it is just that in recent times vehicles run over an kill enough snakes to kill those within a stones throw from the road and those that are caught by collectors live in that 'close to the road' zone as well. Also the idea of the cuts serving as artificial reefs is not quite right. the snakes and other animals evolved over eons in the natural hills surrounding the roads and the cuts probably just slow them down a little so we can find them while they are on their way to death on the road. Artificial reefs take the place of natural reefs killed by ocean pollution, the cuts are holes dynamited by road crews so cars can speed down the highway killing wildlife left and right.

Jim

Very well said.
Thanks for the input
Rick

pretty much any biologist will tell you it isn't a good idea to release cb animals into the wild. Disease vectors, for one thing.

Years ago I took most of my WC animals back to the exact spots where I caught them. I figure I didn't have any evident diseases in the colubrids so it would be OK. I don't think I'd ever release cb into the wild. "hwy 277" is a locality, but it is still a long stretch from carruthers creek to the edwards county line and it could to a moderate degree mess up the genetics of a precise area. same with "langtry" or "palma draw"

That there may be a number of factors at play, some of which I am sure we have not picked up on at all.

Of course we have collected a lot of animals from a small percentage of their range.

Increased traffic along the roads may be thining the herd.

Weather can have short term effects on their activity.

Climate can have long term effects on their population and their food resources.

Natural predation could be up with more ringtails, feral cats etc.

Fewer collectors now due to economic cost.

I am less inclined to think that it is a simple factor of hunting pressure on alterna in the common localities, because there is also a noted reduction in everything else. Even species that we do not collect. I would bet that we are a long way from seeing the glory days again, if it ever happens at all.

I will say that this year was a personal low in volume / variety of animals for me. I hope that it is just a late start to the year due to the weather, but only time will tell on that.

Now that we have established that collection in South and West Texas is rough this year. How have the other regions been?

I hear the numbers from east Texas are actually good lots of tan and buttermilks, a few pygmys found, I am seeing good numbers of speckled kings, T rats and various water snakes in southeastern Texas. No annulatas down south, I usually see at least one April- May but wait for the hatch! Lots of meahllmorrims, red eared turtle carnage is high. No tortoises or box turtles this year either. That's my view. Was gonna go west today, screw the moon, but got off too late. May piddle around Victoria/Guadelupe river area just for fun tomorrow. Who's goin' to the IHS?
Todd Hughes

The major factors that serve to reduce #s of alterna caught:

1. Fewer hunters (in the early 90s, hwy 90 had a car on every cut, now an average night might see one or two cars in 20 miles)
2. Bad weather (this year's drought comes to mind - but on the whole, the early 90s (91/92 come to mind) were much wetter than these the 00s)

and I'll give you the depletion of roadside populations over time, but it is a very very distant factor, as these populations are replenished each year from those populations away from the roads.

Troy

in between 2 very acknowledgeable people spending far more time than i have. Late on board but........this was a theory of repetitiveness of west of Lajitas and starting right outside of Lajitas for years of maybe over collecting. While other factors has been criticize like the re-doing of road and shaved cuts, the building of the rock retainer wall, there was indeed a very healthy stock of alterna, lep, and suboc that has not been found for quite a awhile of that precise location. At least of my observation and data compared to over a decade or more of past. The only other people that could possibly give us a better account of would be Norm and Saddleman of actually living there ?
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......