Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'd like to get some consensus on this topic because I believe it to be really debatable.
Does soaking really hydrate a thirsty Uro? Their desert designed skin resists water loss but, but does it really allow the opposite, water absorption?
Forget about whether or not the soaking induces the animal to drink. I'm talking about absorption thru the skin.
The few times I've soaked one always resulted in a totally freaked out desert lizard trying to understand why he's being subjected to the water torture.
Ideas, comments, input?

My uro freaks out badly also when put in water for a soak.He was dehydrated but I gave him pedialyte via eyedropper and some romaine with his other greens and I believe it was the last two that rehydrated him and not the soak because after about 2 days of the pedialyte and romaine his appetite was back to normal as he ate all of his greens and most of his second dish of greens and has been ever since.He also started pooping on a regular basis and he wasn't going on a regular basis before rehydrating him.So if soaking actually does hydrate them I don't know but I won't be rehydrating mine that way anymore and instead will use the eyedropper and romaine.
-----
Cajit

URO'S RULE ALL!!!

1.0 Mali Uromastyx (OZ) DOUG DIX

I'd have to agree with you, not because of any research or indepth knowledge, but common sense. In the wild these animals have probably never seen a puddle of water, so I can't see what putting them in a pan of water is going to accomplish short of scaring the crap out of them. I just wouldn't think that a desert animal is designed to absorb water.

JR
-----
BRUCELIZARD.COM Curious? Thought So.

the only thing i've found soaking my uro useful for is trying to force a bowel movement out of him, which can be a sign of dehydration. while i doubt it cured the dehyrdration, really hot water can be effective in getting those muscles moving back there. i've also found just giving the little guy some space for running can move around all that stuff back there if he is constipated.
but my experience with bathing my uro is that he HATES it, i think the loudest he's ever clicked at me was in the tub. a much more effective way of hydration, as someone has already said, would dietarily through romaine, (i've never used pedialyte personally).
one thing to consider when soaking any uro is to dry them off afterward, especially the tail, as my guy generally runs and hides after he gets back from a bath. since they're not built to really get super wet tail rot could set it. (well, probably not just from one soaking, but i think we all like to be a little extra careful with our uros)

A uro may or may not asorb water up their vent when soaking, but we have never soaked any of our uros. We either feed romaine or mist their food once or twice a week, No problems with impacted animals yet.

You know, another thing I was wondering about this was the whole inflationi thing.

The one time I tried to soak my uro, he puffed up immediately- it brought me to wonder if it was just a last resort/all out panic mechanism, or if the bouyancy effect was what he was aiming for.

Anyone else have a similar occurance?

hey I would say that soaking is very debateable. I would like to weigh in and say that mine usually do not appear to enjoy it. That said, during a time of stress(after egg deposition, hunger strikes, illness, etc.)I would reccommend it to a uro who is losing or has lost a great deal of weight because of lack of moisture through food. My female who just laid eggs seemed to drink quite a bit of water when she had her soak.
Do I think soaking should be part of routine husbandry? Probably not, although, every summer I do soak mine to clean up their skin before I put them outside in the sun cage.

>>I'd like to get some consensus on this topic because I believe it to be really debatable.
>>Does soaking really hydrate a thirsty Uro? Their desert designed skin resists water loss but, but does it really allow the opposite, water absorption?
>>Forget about whether or not the soaking induces the animal to drink. I'm talking about absorption thru the skin.
>>The few times I've soaked one always resulted in a totally freaked out desert lizard trying to understand why he's being subjected to the water torture.
>>Ideas, comments, input?

What about when they shed, does soaking help the skin come off? I very rarely soak mine, but when I do, the water is very hot and my uro goes right to sleep. He is very calm afterwards when drying him as well. I adopted him from very unsanitary conditions and even believe he had tail rot at one point because the tip of his tail is gone. The person I got him from said they soaked him at least 2 to 3 times a week and suggested I do the same thing. Well, after lots of research, I've done otherwise. Not sure if the tail rot was from him soaking all the time or a # of other things, but it could be possible.

I've heard that while there shedding water could get under some of the shed skin and stay there where it could cause problems.I don't remember where I heard this but I guess it's not impossible.But my uro absolutely want's nothing to do with water in any way, so he won't be going back in water ever.I throw some romaine hearts including the middle vein which seems to be almost all water in with his staple greens 2-3 times a week and he stays plenty hydrated.
-----
Cajit

URO'S RULE ALL!!!

1.0 Mali Uromastyx (OZ) DOUG DIX

Absolutely.
Shedding of the skin can demonstrate many things about husbandry concerns that are not easy to maintain.
In most of the literature available, the natural habitat of Uros involve a tunnel system resulting in a burrow. Those burrows can be fairly deep in the ground. The humidity on the surface can be substantially less than it is maintained in the burrow. Temperatures will be different as well in these burrows.
Do to the constraints posed by having these animals, most of us cannot build 3 meter tunnels that have depths of nearly 2 meters.
Temperature in the enclosures is somewhat easy to maintain, humidity is another matter. A desert tunnel microclimate is very difficult to duplicate.
Most of us have enclosure that i would assume border on too little relative humidity as opposed to too much. In my opinion, that is probably best, because of problems like tail rot and blister disease, resulting from too much moisture.
So in my opinion, that the occasional soak is more beneficial than hurtful.

>>What about when they shed, does soaking help the skin come off? I very rarely soak mine, but when I do, the water is very hot and my uro goes right to sleep. He is very calm afterwards when drying him as well. I adopted him from very unsanitary conditions and even believe he had tail rot at one point because the tip of his tail is gone. The person I got him from said they soaked him at least 2 to 3 times a week and suggested I do the same thing. Well, after lots of research, I've done otherwise. Not sure if the tail rot was from him soaking all the time or a # of other things, but it could be possible.

Recently, a Saudi Press post was made on this forum stating that uromastyx had the unusual ability to absorb water. Here is a quote:

” If a drop of water is placed on the skin of a dhub or any uromastyx, the droplet will disappear at once. If it rains they absorb water. It is this sponge-like characteristic of some desert lizards that enable them to adapt well to deserts. “No one knows how they do that,” he said.

I took this as Wagemann hinting to the fact that uromastyx have hygroscopic abilities similar to that of a Thorny Devil.

I have not seen reference to uromastyx having this unique trait in any of my research nor did the water particles I dropped on the back of a dozen of my uromastyx instantly absorb. I just ended up with a lot of strange and confused looks from the uros.

If anyone has a lead, I would really like to get a hold of any material regarding the tail fat storage study that Wilms references in that article. Wilms states that uromastyx can convert fat to water at a 1 to 1.2 conversion rate. With specific numbers like this, I would think an actual study exists.

I would also like to know if Wagemann has knowledge of uromastyx actually demonstrating reliable hygroscopic abilities or if he simple drew his conclusions from dropping water on the back of a couple of animals.
I have emailed Mr Wilms but he is sometimes slow to respond, as he is an extremely busy man.

Although I have found no evidence of a uromastyx having a cloacal bursae similar to that of birds and turtles, I do think that uromastyx might be able to relax the vent enough when soaking to allow intake of water into this region. I have no proof of this- just a suspicion based on one particular experience. I do not regularly soak my uromastyx but on occasion have found the need (various reasons) to soak an animal. Several years ago I was soaking a large 500 gram male mali and when taking him back to his enclosure, he released a large amount of fluid void of feces and urates. I have been around reptiles my entire life so I know that this can be a typical stress response and have encountered it with tortoise, other uromastyx…ect. In this case, the amount of fluid was so exaggerated, it led me to the personal conclusion that this animal had somehow taken in a rather large amount of fluid through the vent region and released it half way back to the enclosure. I was quite amazed by the amount of fluid involved.
Should this action be a possibility, I have no guess on an animal’s ability to retain fluid in this area or how often it may occur with uromastyx when soaking. I have no idea where the fluid is stored but my guess would be the proctodeum? I am only relating one particular experience and my suspicions from this experience.

Artgecko wrote: ” My female who just laid eggs seemed to drink quite a bit of water when she had her soak.’

The majority of my females will drink water directly after oviposition. Even those females that typically do not drink water will often drink at this time. Next time I suggest you try offering standing water rather than soaking and see if the outcome is not the same.

dont know about everybody else but my uro has big problems shedding. i have to soak him to loosen most of his skin during shed and it seems really thick. he too submerges his head for a few seconds at a time and sometimes drinks from the bath. a lot of the time he just wants out though. plenty of veg should keep them hydrated though.
as far as the skin absorbtion, mine does seem to absorb water upon contact. dont know if it just appears to soak in or if it actually does though.
-----
AndyD

0.0.1 Mexican Kingsnake
0.1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.1.0 Bearded Dragon (Hypo-Green)
0.1.0 Bearded Dragon (Red Phase)
0.1.0 Bearded Dragon (Hypo Red X Purple Tiger)
1.0.0 Egyptian Uromastyx
0.0.1 Frilled Dragon

You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!!

Been busy, or just hiding. Haven't seen you around for awhile.
Glad to see that you have'nt completely givin up on us.

Hrrm. Sounds like I have one of the very few Uros that doesn't seem to mind a little soak. I put her in a long, low sided tupperware container and she doesn't bother trying to get out until after about 10 minutes. She just wanders around seems to enjoy herself.

Thanks all, for your good response! I posted because aggression issues forced us to separate last year's Ornate hatchlings & one of them isn't adjusting well to the change. A big drop in appetite is causing some dehydration though it's not serious yet. I thought that before we begin the Pedialyte, maybe no harm could come from a soak (which I've NEVER felt necessary with any of our Uros). Seemingly, 30 minutes of that only resulted in an air filled & terrified Uro more distraught than before.
Most of you suggested what I already thought, that soaking is, at best, an unlikely means of hydration. Still, I hope we can some further opinions on this.
Oh, for the subject, the separation was about 2 weeks ago.
Again, thanks!
Dan.

None of the desert species of lizards can absorb usable water directly though skin. It’s a folk tale that just won’t die due to people misinterpreting casual observations. To the same degree fingernails can absorb water, most reptile skin can, which is to say it’s an insignificant and painfully slow process. This is how soaking aids in shedding for some species (by softening/ weakining the skin). But even this water is trapped within the matrix of the skin and is not readily passed through. If it could get through in biologically significant amounts, all Uros would die of dehydration during shedding as they secrete fluid between the old skin and the underlying developing new skin for many days to even weeks at a time. Compare this to a few minutes soak and you can see the absurdity of thinking significant amounts of water are crossing the skin barrier. It’s counter–productive to have water permeable skin in a highly arid environment. At best a few species have scales that can direct surface moisture from morning dews to funnel towards the mouth for intake normally (or more remotely to the cloaca - not proven but theoretically possible but unlikely in Uros due to the design of the cloacal covering). But none can directly absorb biologically significant amounts of water through the skin.

People often think Uros are absorbing water during soaking because they seem to get bigger. This is from them swallowing air (a defensive reaction). Dripped water disappearing on the skin is an optical illusion brought on by the fact the scales of the skin direct water droplets outward making them seem to have been absorbed.

Soaking in water is not a natural behavior in Uromastyx. Most panic if the water is more than a few centimeters deep, as in the wild this would indicate they’ve gotten caught in a flash flood. There are almost never opportunities for arid desert species to “soak” in true standing water. Free standing water in a true arid desert is usually from a brief flash rain where “standing “ water is usually only in the wadis (dry stream beds) where it is moving quickly and thus often fatal to be caught it. At best coastal species can get access to morning dew but even this is extremely transitory.

FWIW,

Douglas Dix
Deer Fern Farms

Thanks, Doug. These are "Peach Cheek's" kids that are causing me some concern. The soak really freaked the one out badly. No appearance in the 3 days since. And this one is (was) puppy dog tame. From the day it was seperated, it began a decline.
Dan.

Have you tried the pedialyte yet?I only gave mine the pedialyte as he wasn't eating much at all for a week or so otherwise I wouldn't normally give pedialyte, just in those kinds of circumstances.I'll just throw some romaine in with the other greens as an extra water source so to speak under normal conditions.Occasoinally I'll also put a jar lid with just enough water to cover the bottom in cage before my uro wakes up in case he wants a drink,I've never seen him drink it but I smooth out the sand to catch his footprints and have seen on more then one occasion his front footprints directly in front of lid as if he drank.Now if he's actually drank some I really couldn't tell.
-----
Cajit

URO'S RULE ALL!!!

1.0 Mali Uromastyx (OZ) DOUG DIX

Nope, not just yet. We're going to hold off any further man-handling until we've exhausted thought that "time" is the answer.
One thing that I have to consider; it's going on mid summer. Does the seperation coincide with a normal, seasonal, instinctive loss of interest in greens this time of year? Flowers are most popular in Spring, 'cause that's when they happen all over the world. Greens last a little longer but, then the really dry period kicks in. Seeds & such take over as a staple diet. I can't help but wonder if the seperation has taken place at a crucial juncture in their instinctive feeding habits. Am I onto something or just succumbing to being a parent who's thinking too much??
We'll give it another week before we yank out the pedialyte syringe.
Dan

Ooops, forgot!
For those of you who have been on this forum for awhile, this youngster is the one we posted who always slept on her back with her little legs reaching for the sky.

These uro's you're talking about are they the beautiful little ornates?I so badly want one of my own a male preferrably maybe a female also for breeding in the future but not until around next april or so.I don't blame you for waiting especially since more handling at this time could and most likely would cause more uneeded stress.I've never seen a uro sleeping on it's back with it's legs in the air, that would make an excellent postcard!
-----
Cajit

URO'S RULE ALL!!!

1.0 Mali Uromastyx (OZ) DOUG DIX

Yes, they're ornates. The father was purchased from Lindsay, the mother from Doug. We've found ornates to be, by far, the most enjoyable Uros. Kinda pricey but, they give back more than what you pay!

I bought Oz my mali from Doug and will most likely try to get a male ornate from him also hopefully he'll have some when I want one.I may also try Lindsay for a male ornate because he lives in Tampa,FL. and I live in Clearwater,FL. which is about 30 minute drive from him.I would love to go to his place and hand pick an ornate since I'm so close to him but don't know if he'd go for that,hopefully!They are an absolutely beautiful uro to say the least.Little pricey yes but I wouldn't mind spending it on one or two.Whenever you had hatchling's I guess you could make your money back plus some if you sold some.Do you keep all of your's or sell them?I'm not asking to buy one, like I said not buying one until next year around april or so, can't wait!!!!
-----
Cajit

URO'S RULE ALL!!!

1.0 Mali Uromastyx (OZ) DOUG DIX

If we're successful this season, we'll be selling them once we're confident of sex determinations. Here's a link to a photo of Papa.

Image

We've not a clue as to how everybody else's photos got attached to ours. Posting picts has always been exasperating but, this time I'm ready to go postal.

If your male ornate's name is blue he's beautiful!Do you live in Florida also?If you have a male for sale from next april onwards I'd definitely be interested so keep me in mind.I've just been browsing to see how available male ornates are and it look's as if it's going to be difficult to find one with only females being sold as of now.I just find them captivating, with those vivid colors.
-----
Cajit

URO'S RULE ALL!!!

1.0 Mali Uromastyx (OZ) DOUG DIX

We're in Tallahassee. Just stay tuned to the forum. It won't be a secret if we're blessed this year.

Sound's good,I'll definitely do that and hope they get busy!!!
-----
Cajit

URO'S RULE ALL!!!

1.0 Mali Uromastyx (OZ) DOUG DIX

”None of the desert species of lizards can absorb usable water directly though skin. It’s a folk tale that just won’t die due to people misinterpreting casual observations. At best a few species have scales that can direct surface moisture from morning dews to funnel towards the mouth for intake normally (or more remotely to the cloaca - not proven but theoretically possible but unlikely in Uros due to the design of the cloacal covering). But none can directly absorb biologically significant amounts of water through the skin.”

Doug,

It sounds as if you are familiar with the studies done on moloch horridus and Phrynosoma cornutum. I have heard varying details on the studies but seeing no direct connection between the specialized abilities of these animals and uromastyx, I have not pursued the specific data. Can you shed some light on what you know about the amount of water uptake demonstrated by these animals (have heard things like 1 gram/1ml). In the literature I have read, I have not seen anything about these channels/capillaries directing water to the cloaca. Was this mentioned in the research on these animals or are you simply sharing your own personal guess?

” Dripped water disappearing on the skin is an optical illusion brought on by the fact the scales of the skin direct water droplets outward making them seem to have been absorbed.’

So are you suggesting that Wagemann’s comments are solely based on this simple action with no other support or is this a guess on your part? I ask because I am looking for more details on his statement and if you know for certain that he has no reliable material to back his statement- I would rather not spend my time searching for something that you can verify does not exist.

I am certainly no expert having only about six months experience keeping my group of Ornates but, I have read as much as I can about them for several years and I have many (many) years maintaining other types of herps.

I soak mine in about 3/8 to ½ inch of water every 2 to 4 weeks. Not really to “hydrate” them, I figured out pretty quickly that they weren’t interested in drinking and absorption…hum; but to keep them clean.

In a captive environment it is too easy for them to get small amounts (hardly noticeable) of food and sometimes feces on them, especially in the tail spikes. No matter how hard I try to keep them clean, they will get dirty. I dry them off afterwards and make sure I only do it on days I can set them out in the sun to dry. If I lived in a humid climate I might have to rethink things but they dry off pretty quickly here. They don’t seem to enjoy it, but don’t seem to mind it either.

My hypothesis is, that tail rot problems come more from a dirty environment than from getting a little wet (of course a lot wet is another story). I guess I have taken clean to the extreme, both keeping the cages as clean as possible and cleaning the Uro’s themselves every so often.

Just my 2 cents

-----
Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Rick, thanks for adding another opinion to the soaking thread. I have to agree with you, though, in that you may be going "extreme". If the enclosure is regularly maintained, the lizards are unlikely to ever get "dirty" with healthy poops. Leastways, we've never seen a need to clean any of our Uros over the years with the exception of a WC McFad that initially had some, uh, rather bad hind-end issues.

That would be one reason I would soak my uro also but he stays rather clean and I spot clean the cage once sometimes more daily so haven't had the need to soak for that so far.
-----
Cajit

URO'S RULE ALL!!!

1.0 Mali Uromastyx (OZ) DOUG DIX

Yes, it is probably over kill; but, it doesn’t really hurt anything either. What is sad is: I may have to part with them all due to an upcoming work assignment.
-----
Rick
Never Enough
Reptiles

Noooooooooo, that would be bad news. The good news is, you'd probably have no trouble finding good homes for them via your friends on this forum.
Keep us posted!