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OK, I've seen the huge threads that have resulted from certain posts here. I also looked at one of the links posted by H+E Stoeckl. One thing that caught my eye was the one about the Pentagon and the missing plane.

Now, I am not after a slating here. I just want some opinions and views. What is the buzz in the US, is there one? Why isn't there any trace of a plane in these photographs.

Please, I just want views here as to why there isn't any debris. Are there any scientists that can explain it? I'm sure there are explanations otherwise I'm sure I'd have seen this story on the news or internet before. It just struck me as a little unusual.

Any ideas?

I cannot stress enough here that I just want some opinions. I am not anti US, pro Al Quieda, or anything. I am just someone that sees something unusual and would like an explanation.
THE STORY

Ahaa, well here's a site that counters the conspiracy. It still seems to leave some questions yet I'm not a crash specialist so what should I know! One thing, surely the plane would have had a black boc on board? Has that been recovered?
WEB SITE

This gets better! I too had heard repeatedly that Black Boxes were, by design, meant to withstand crashes. Surely that is their purpose? In every big plane crash I have ever seen on the news, there is always a black box. And yet, not one of the four from 9/11 survived! Anyway...breaks over, back to work.
WEB SITE

Just read there are two black boxes on each plane, so that makes not 1 / 8 survived!

You're factually wrong; the ones from the Philly plane crash are fine. Their contents were examined, released, etc. And the the other black boxes; I don't know if all were ruined, but frankly, they're not designed to survive that type of crash; they can float (they're actually orange, IIRC, to facilite finding them in water), tolerate short-duration fires, high impacts, etc. Not, however, a building collapsing on them, as well as a moderatly long lasting, high heat fire. They've not been designed for that.
And even if they did survive, can't be sure they'd all be found; what was it, 100 tons of rubble? Even with a fine tooth comb, the inspectors are human, and err. I know some of those boxes have locator units, but those *do* break, easily enough too.

Paul
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Cornsnakes and kingsnakes and gophers oh my!

Paul,

I am sure some of the facts I read are wrong, I don't deny that. You know the amount of rubbish you read in the papers and on the internet these days! I tried to word my posts in a way that at least showed I was open to offers, you know, any information welcome. I do find it strange that in all other crashed I hear of the black boxes yield considerable information about the events leading up to the crash, but then who am I to comment on the capabilities of these devices?

Anyway, thanks for your post. I'm still struggling to come to terms with the plane in the pentagon though!

... who are able to discuss this matter without hostility.
I see that the attitude of the people in the U.S. regarding this topic is quite different to Europe.

It has been a terrible shock for the U.S. citizens and maybe it is not easy for someone outside to understand how deep this shock has been.

This may be the reason that any controversial discussion about this terrible incident is regarded as kind of sacrilege by most of the U.S. citizens.

But an interested person outside the U.S. who is searching the internet for informations on this topic will find some contradictions to the official version. Contradictions that leads to think.

The question that I asked myself before gathering any informations on this topic was: Why did the perform the attack at a time when a minimum victims has to be expected? Such terrorists always want the maximum on victims. On top of that at such a time of the day is is almost certain that none of the brass will be killed.

Furthermore: Such terrorists always acknowledge their attacks. They boast with it, make videos before. Usamas first statement was kind of: Fine thing, but we have nothing to do with it...

Isn't this peculiar?

Please post only replies of explanation and reasonable discussion. Name calling and holy indignation are no proper contribution to this topic.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

There is no such thing as a "reasonable discussion" with such a delusional person like yourself. You are constantly reaching with your ridiculous theories which get more and more outlandish with every post. Who are you to request only "replies of explanation and reasonable discussion" when you have AT NO TIME offered either? You always have a question or conspiracy theory, yet you NEVER have any facts or bases for your ludicrous theories. How do you know "minimum victims" has to be expected? Man, are you reaching or what? Is that the best you have to offer? That attack wasn't planned the day before, moron. It was probably planned a year before. They hit the Twin Towers because it rep[resented an importanat symbol to us, not because of how many people are in there on any given day. In regard to Usamam lying...DU-UH! He's not about to admit he slapped a super-power in the face. There is absolutely nothing "peculiar" about that coward lying about attacking us. In closing Stoeckl, why don't you, for just once in your miniscule existence, come up with a substantial thought or a VALID viewpoint that possesses some , any hint of proof.

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Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I am smart, but my name isn't Alek. Why don't you read his follow up post where it explains why you don't see the debris, or do you read selectively? Perhaps you did read it but don't want to acknowledge or admit the fact that there is in fact an explanation. Here's a question for you numbnuts. If you shoot a cannon at a wall, does it go through the wall or does it stay outside of the wall where you can see it? Anyone who trys to insinuate that the U.S. is bombing itself has one agenda. To bash this country...period! As far as I'm concerned, any anti-American's opinions such as yours mean SQUAT!

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Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

That's right. It vanished INTO the building. What's the matter Stokie? Are you pissed that there is actually an explanation that discredits yet another ridiculous "theory"? You are truly a nincompoop! For once in your life, show some FACTS to support just one of your delusional theories. The truth is...you can't!

Why can't You show us some facts, instead of making up bedtime stories so you can look like you actually know something.

steve

I don't need to. I'm not the accuser here. Shouldn't the accuser bare the burden of proof? All of your accusations are based on outlandish theories. Put up or shut up.

It says the wings would have broken off as the whole in the building isnt big enough for the wings to have gone through, so where are the wings that should be in front of the building.

Oh yeah, why do name call when someone has a diffrent point of view from yours, it just shows us how childish you are.

steve

That was someone's rendition of how it should have happened. In other words, a "theory". Naturally, any theory that discredits the U.S. is the right theory in your eyes even without the benefit of testing. Do you really think the wings would stay in one piece and just drop right there in front of the building in plain view? Give me a break! You, much like Stoeckl, are really reaching.

Do you think the wings would stay on, and if they fell off, where would they go, come on tell me your side of this.

steve

Did this clown fall out of the cukoo's nest or what? Stoeckl still believes that someone who calls him a name can't make a valid point. Well Stoeckl, even if I were to give you the nicest compliment in the world you'd still be just as wrong about the insulting drivel that is your thoughts. Why do you continue to insist on making a fool of yourself?

Snake Feller

Why did the perform the attack at a time when a minimum victims has to be expected?

Hello, Is anyone home. The WTC was struck shortly after EVERYONE had just arrived for work. That sounds like they planned for maximum casualties to me.

Are you also denying that 2 planes hit the WTC. Or, are you saying that an hour after the WTC attack the US government came up with an elaborate plan to blow up the pentagon because the WTC attack just wasnt enough and we needed more reason to go after a crazy billionaire and his goons. Please make note of the sarcasm. It just doesnt make any sense. Please do some research and use some common sense or at least come up with some sort of relevant argument so we dont think youve completely lost your mind.

One last thing, and I have not checked on this, but I believe that the plane that crashed in the field did not leave anything but a huge hole in the ground. Good luck to you.

Stoeckl, your brain, if you wanna call it that, has been trained to disbelieve anything that the US government has to say. This is understandable though because you come from a country that breeds suspicion. The obvious can't possibly be the explanation with you, can it? Get it through your head CREEP that you have been playing your insulting games here involving a tragedy from which lots of misery was created. Why don't you take a break, CREEP, or do you get off on being a gutless coward?

Snake Feller

... and one has every reason to question things that are presented by your country.

Just look at the first war on Iraq. The U.S. presented a witness before the United Nations that claimed that Iraqi soldiers had hauled babies out of the incubators in Kuwait and threw it on the ground.
This witness was one of the reasons that made the people in the U.S. and Europe ready for the first war on Iraq.

The truth (that turned out later) was that the witness has been the daughter of the Kuwait embassador in the U.S. and that it all was a fake.

The same fake as the reports that had been presented as to alleged weapons of mass destruction in Iraq by your minister of foreign affairs before the U.N.

To the utmost disgrace of the U.S. it turned out to be an essay written by a british student years ago.

And you really dare to blame people from other countries when they think about facts that are presented which question the official version of happenings that lead to wars which has been in the utmost interest of the U.S.???

In Germany we have a saying: The one who is caught lying will not find believers anymore even he speaks the truth.

I don't think that we are too distrustful, on the contrary: I think you are too gullible. And I am rather a creep than a gullible idiot who believes everything only because of the president says it is so.

I haven't said that this terrible event happend the way it is described in the official version. I just said it must be allowed to ponder controversial facts that are presented.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

You are BOTH a gullible idiot AND a creep. To you the war in Iraq was a Hollywood movie with lots of behind the scenes drama and, scandal, propoganda, and special effects. To me the war in Iraq was just another step in Bush's war on terrorism. I don't consider in entertaining, and I don't find it amusing, like you, to "ponder controversial facts", as you so inappropriately put it. In case you missed it, Bush did make his intentions quite clear in his very public declaration speech following 9/11. I have no problem watching Bush do exactly what he said he was going to do. We all see your obvious venom for the US. The more you blather, the more you hidden fangs can be seen. I suggest you keep the anti-American discussions, "pondering controversial facts", between you and your little Euro-trash buddies. Have you noticed the way you've been thrown around these forums, lately, like a rag doll? What are you gaining by showing us what a jackass you are?

Snake Feller

Why oh why do you guys keep saying we are ANT AMERICAN, I think this show that you just want to make us look that way, we are not anti anyone, its you guys that keep trashing Europe with your words, and the thing is, we dont react like you guys do.

You are all soo very angry at everything that differs from your point of view, this damm PROUDNESS has gone too far, please tell me some real things that you are PROUD of in America, I know there are lots of things but Please tell me some.

steve

I'm proud that centuries ago, our founding fathers flushed England, and all of its pomposity, down the toilet. How's that?

Snake Feller

Just ignorance comes from your mouth

Truth hurts, huh Mr.IlljustkeepchangingthesubjectwheneverIgetbackedintoacornerwithmyhypocriticalbigmouth.

Lost for words this time hey

Yeah right! Where's the last post where you actually had anything substantial to say, lol?

I read in the National Enquirer that the dismantling of the Berlin wall was just a hoax. What do you think Stoeckl? What if I posted that aricle on this forum and accused the German government of staging the whole thing. I could also post some "controversial facts" for YOU to "ponder". Wouldn't I look like a jackass, just like you. Wouldn't I Stoeckl?

Snake Feller

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Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Reports, documents, he said, she said, the "first war" in Iraq, blah, blah, blah! This isn't about the first war in Iraq when by the way, there was a different president in charge and we didn't lose three thousand plus innocent people in a terrorist bombing. How about showing just one lousy piece of evidence to support the ridiculous conjecture you keep citing?

The UN is a collection of morons just like you. The UN includes France, Germany and Russia. I don't forget how you (Germany) and your Euro-trash buddied (France & Russia) attempted to prevent America from taking care of business in Iraq. i haven't forgotten what your motives were either. If Bush lied to the UN then hooray for him. A collection of nit-wits like those UN countries aren't worthy of honesty and respect, and we did't need their approval in the first place. So what is your silly concern about "UN incidents"? Do care to try, for once, to back up your idiotic claims with some convincing facts? Don't worry Stoeckl, it doesn't matter anyway.

Snake Feller

PS, A poem by Stoeckl: "Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm schizophrenic, and so am I".

You just forget that your government not even lied to the United Nations but also to the world and on top of that to the citizens of the U.S.

They told you the same crap as they told the United Nations

Do you trust a government that lies to you? If so, just apply to emigrate to China. They would love to have such gullible citizens.

Just face the facts: They lied to you in order to go to two wars. The lies became obvious and you say: I don't mind if my government lies to me, I have to defend america.

The perfect citizens for a dictatorship. Emigrate to China! They are waiting for you. They would love to have easy to handle citizens.
Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

"Gullible citizens"? How about your zombie relatives and ancestors who stood behind Hitler? And don't think that your modern day German citizen is any prize. Just look at yourself, for instance. We have the best government on the planet, we have unlimited news sources, and we (the "gullible citizens" are informed. We are now being told by a brainwashed, German child that our government does nothing but lie to us, and you compare us to the communist citizens of China. Ha Ha Stoeckl! The joke's on you and you have no shot at convincing anyone here with your mindless drivel. Don't tax your little brain worrying about how Bush is treating US citizens. We're much better off than you are, which also happens to be the reason why you are driven by your jealousy to criticize anything we do.

Again mental midget, Bush bypassed the corrupted UN in order to proceed with his war on terrorism. We don't have a problem with that. If he lied, then good for him. Go away loser.

Snake Feller

Your words show me that you have no idea about the conditions in for instance Germany.

We have 30 days of vacation. How many do you have?

Litterally everyone has a health insurance here, nobody is forced to make a taxi-driver at the age of 72 with a cancer on the neck as I witnessed it in Daytona. How are things at your place?

Nobody needs two or three jobs in order to make his/her living.
How are things at your place?

When someone loses his/her job he the government provides enough money for acommodation, food and other necessities. How are things at your place?

I could carry on giving examples why the U.S. is a place where I would not even want to hang dead over a chair...

And don't tell me it isn't the way I described the conditions in your country. I had been often and long enough there to know the way how living is there.

It's very interesting, but the best feeling is to return with the feeling "thank God that I don't live there".

So when you talk about jealousy to me I can't help but to smirk in a sympathetic way...

Carry on dreaming of the best of all governments but be careful that you don't get a serious disease. You would need to sell your house to pay the bill for the hospital afterwards and sleep beneath a bridge in the future.

And be warned: There is no internet beneath the bridge. And this will harm the possibility to spread your pathetic and naive patriotism here.

Yeah, I know: The truth hurts and is not popular. But you asked for it.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I liken the word "truth" coming out of your mouth to that of the vile, projectile flatulence that spews from your putrid abyss and permeates the air.

"We have 30 days of vacation. How many do you have?" I have six weeks vacation. You can call it 30 or 42 days depending on whether you count the weekends or not. Do you care to compare annual salaries big shot? Do you spend those 30 days doing nothing because you are penniless?

"Litterally everyone has a health insurance here,". I have health insurance.

"nobody is forced to make a taxi-driver at the age of 72 with a cancer on the neck as I witnessed it in Daytona." Boy that cabbie sure played you for a tip that you probably coundn't afford to give him.

"Nobody needs two or three jobs in order to make his/her living.
How are things at your place?" I have one job.

"When someone loses his/her job he the government provides enough money for acommodation, food and other necessities. How are things at your place?" You must be referring to our Unemployment Compensation system.

"I could carry on giving examples why the U.S. is a place where I would not even want to hang dead over a chair..." Good, the feelings mutual.

"And don't tell me it isn't the way I described the conditions in your country. I had been often and long enough there to know the way how living is there." Aren't you the same clown that suggested the Twin Towers were blown up by Our own government with explosives, not airplanes? Yeah, you know a lot about this country.

"It's very interesting, but the best feeling is to return with the feeling "thank God that I don't live there". We wouldn't want you here, but I'm curious to know why you've been here so many times when it's so bad? What say you jackass?

"So when you talk about jealousy to me I can't help but to smirk in a sympathetic way..." Why would you visit so many times? I have no desire to ever visit Germany because your country has nothing to offer. What exactly is it that the US had to offer that drew you to it so many times?

Stoeckl, you only managed to come up with about three things that YOU thought Germany had over the US. Wow! You been just as unconvincing as you usually are in making a point.

I've never been to Germany, but I do know something about your Socialistic way of life. Nobody here is forced to wait in line until our government decides it's good and ready to give us basic things like toilet paper. We have the potential to be very successful in the US depending on our individual values and motivations. We choose how far we want to go. You comrades are still get whatever your government is good and ready to give you, regardless of how hard you work. I don't know of one single person in this country that moved to Germany, or any of your Euro-trash neighbors, because the US wasn't good enough. On the other hand, we have a constant flow of immigrants to this country. Why do you think that is brainiac?

Snake Feller

Nicely put! You are truly a poet.

I'm sorry but that is the rudest, narrow minded and ill-informed post I have EVER seen. It basically sums up the mentality that leads to SO much resentment towards the US in various parts of the world. I see so often posts here that refer to 'lowly' countries etc, which confirm the feeling of superiority on behalf of the US. Get over it! And get some manners!

Oh excuse me if I've ruffled your sensitive socialist feathers by responding, in a rude manner, to your insolent, Euro-trash, imbecile buddy from Germany. I wouldn't expect YOU to comment on the insane trash that he's put forth on this forum. I would't expect you to comment on the true reasons why France, Germany and Russia (the UN) opposed the war in Iraq. You filter out anything that would favor the US, and you've been exposed early on in this thread for your anti-American mindset. Come back when you can form an objective opinion. Your own narrow-minded point of view is what has you looking like a horses aSS right now. You have no credibility.

Snake Feller

The USA spends soo much money making sure everyone else is behaving in a way that suits the US. With this in mind tell me why the US government doesnt help the US citizens as well. I lived in the US for 7 years and have never seen soo many homeless people in my life, also the way your country just puts people on the streets who are mentally ill but have run out of insurance money makes me sick. you say capitolism is the best but you never comment on the bad side of it.

Everywhere I went in the US, every shop I went into, every traffic light I stopped at, every car park I parked in, there was someone begging for money, and capitolism works hey, even your Vietnam vets are begging because your government doesnt look after its war heroes after they have done their job and are of no use to them anymore.

Your government lets your people down time and time again, ive seen it all, and you deffend them like they are your friends, yes they like you when they can tax you but if you are down and out then you hope to hell that someone else will help you.

These are just facts, not lies and not meant to dissrespect anyone, I feel sorry for the way it is there, its no joy ride here either but we will be housed and helped when we fall on tough ground.

I just dont get all the trust that you put in your government, regardless of how they treat the American people.

Is there room for questioning as to why they treat you this way.

steve

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

...dig that, alright, rock and roll, woo-hooooo! Get a grip Mr. Illjustrideevryoneelsescoattailswithmyweakassposts.

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Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Gee, if you say so, it must be true, LOL.

Life here is what we make it, not what our government makes it, dimwit. Nice try though. Keep reaching.

Look, any country has the bloody right to disagree with the 'mighty' US. They don't have to agree with everything your government chooses to do! I'm sorry but there is a hell of a lot of ill feeling towards the US around the world, rightly or wrongly, and it's not all jealousy (as you'd probably put it). Now, I am NOT anti-US, but I do have an understanding why so many people in so many countries are. Now if you can't, and your government can't, there will be problems in the future. Terrorists do things because they feel they want to fight their cause. When you try to understand this feeling is when you really start the fight against terrorism. I know you won't agree with me here, and personally I don't care. But, hopefully your 'leader' will learn, and lives can be saved.

Who are you trying to kid? Your resentment is the result of your inability to make us think the way you do. Nothing more. The more we defend our country, the angrier you get. By the way, in case I haven't mentioned it yet...

WE ARE SUPERIOR...GET OVER THAT!!!

Have a nice day.

.

LMAO!!!! Your stories get funnier and funnier! The more you reach the more your credibility whistles down the drain, lol. Keep them coming Stokie! I'm really starting to believe that you are a paranoid schizophrenic.

From a German, I'd expect better; it was Munich that brought terrorism to the global fore-front, after all. You'd expect a german to know more about machinations of terrorism.
Terrorist do not always go after maximum body count; they try to terrorize you, and bring about your concession to thier goals (hence the name "terrorist". They certainly will take a high body count, if they can get it, but effective terrorist should be more interested in making you scared than making you pissed. Unfortunatly, they miscalculated--despite the resources he brought to it, Al-Quida is a second rate outfit, and it shows. It was and is run by religious fanatics, and thier judgment can be...clouded by thier emotions. They hacked us off enough to make us attack thier host country--their loss.
Striking the towers was a massive blow to the country, regardless of when it took place; from an economic standpoint alone, the damage was immense. It succeded in the first part of the goal, but over-reached, and actually made us really PO'd for the first time in a long time, so we went to war.
BTW, if they'd wanted to minimize body count they'd have hijacked a red-eye flight at around 2AM. Not flown a plane into the bulding right when EVERYONE that worked there was arriving--it's truly a miracle thousands more didn't die.

And don't you DARE to accuse us of being close minded. Three or four of us (some with actual training in relevant fields, like air traffic control) have pointed out, rationally, the problems with that tripe posing as journalism. You are the one that still cites it. If you actually looked at the article, and dug up some facts (plans for the towers, air traffic regulations, some physics, and perhaps some info on Usuam and terrorist), you'd relize why we treat it with scorn.

Paul
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Cornsnakes and kingsnakes and gophers oh my!

Jackass!

Snake Feller

This is in response to the website posted by Hermann a couple of posts down. The one that spewed the idiotic idea of the goverment acutally planning the attacks.

I don't know how many members here have avaition experience,but i'll try to explain some things that made that website to worthless.

I might be getting a little off the current topic, but i wanted to explain this to anyone who might be buying that website's filth.

1. "The terrorists would not have been able to pilot the Boeing because they didn't have enough experience." Here's the deal, flying a plane once it's in the air isn't really all that difficult. It was quoted in the website that the hijackers were dubbed not able to solo in a single-engine plane. The difference between keeping an already airborne plane straight-and-level and soloing a single engine is the difference between keeping a boa and keeping hots. All the hijackers had to do was find their destination and wait for gravity to take over.

2. "The goverment had a phantom plane, that merged on the real plane's flight path, so the radar controllers couldn't tell a switch had been made" Ok, this idea is stupid on multiple levels. #1--You can't just run two planes together and expect nothing to happen! The controllers would be having a freakin heart attack. They'd be calling both planes, trying to vector them around, alarms would be going off, reports would be filed on the controllers end...basically nothing short of chaos. And what, do you think the controllers watch two planes run into each other and then go back to sipping coffee??? #2.--You can't just sub in one plane for another! Planes are given specific identification codes for each flight they make. This code shows up on the controllers screen along with the 'dot' that represents the plane. So theoretically (sp) even if it was possible to fly two planes on the same flight path (which you can't) the controller would see the numbers and know that something was up. And no, it isn't possible to 'steal' the other plane's identifier code.

3. "Why didn't the pilots fight back?" This is something that a lot of people have asked. The answer is simple..THEY HAD NO ROOM!! Cockpits are not a spacious place. Once you manage to squeeze yourself into the seat, then strangle yourself trying to get buckled, you quite literally don't have any room. I'm a 5'4" 123lb female, and I have trouble squeezing into cockpits. If someone comes at you from behind, you're screwed. plain and simple. Bless their souls, those pilots would have only been able to land MAYBE a good punch before their time was up.

There are some other aviation issues i could address in that website, but i'm sure whoever reading this is bored enough as it is.

To the person who asked for our opinions, thank you for your sensitivity to the issue. What do i think about the conspiracy theory? It's a load of filth. Why wasn't there any debris? You don't run a jet that large into a building that large at 350-400mph and expect to find pieces of the fuelage intact! There was a website someone posted a link to that did show pieces of the airplane on the lawn of the pentagon.

And just to wrap up how i really feel about the topic, here is something i found on a website....

"You know the world has gone crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is black, France is accusing us of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want to go to war."

Have a good day everyone

LOL, great ending to a great post! Thanks for enlightening these twits!