Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dakstren, 1.0 stp, as of 05:00 June 16, 2006. temps and humidity in tank optimal (88F/65%)

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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

Dakstren, 1.0 stp, as of 10:20 June 16, 2006. Causes?

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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

Good Lord, how tragic. What symptoms/behaviors preceeded the "night before" pics? And in that first set of pics, the last 3rd of her abdomen is distended, right?

no unusual behavior changes. ate 2 f/t small rats 5/15/06. ate one f/t small rat 6/1/06. refused 6/8/2006. ate 1 f/t small rat 6/13/2006. regurged morning of 6/14/2006. was taken out of tank and showed no unusual or odd symptoms on early morning 6/16/06. found deceased 5 hours later. yes the lower end was swollen/enlarged. area seemed to be tender/spongy to the touch. i dont have any ideas other than maybe some kind of septic issue. defecations were always normal, though.
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

Assuming that the refusal on 6-8 was somewhat unusual and marked the commencement of symptoms, that's still just one week of apparent problems before death. The regurg and swelling are consistant with GI septicemia but the rapid progression and lack of any obvious precipitating event are very puzzling.
I'm sure you know you might consider a necropsy...I'm sorry for your loss and that I can't offer anything very helpful.
Bill

yeah i put him in the fridge for a possible necropsy. not sure what the going rate is for that procedure.
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

also, i didnt see anything unusual to the refusal on the 8th. he had been feeding on 1 f/t small per week so when he ate 2 smalls it was no surprise that he would refuse a later meal.
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

That being so, it is even a more sudden development. Nothing you did or could of done, that's for sure.

Did you feed him his frozen thawed rats in the same cage? If so the some of the bedding could have mistakenly been eaten also. Sorry this happened.
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0.1 Burmese Python
1.10 Ball Pythons (Salazar and Slytherin, nameless)
1.0 Pastel Ball het axanthic Python
1.1 Black Samatran Blood Pythons
0.0.3 Spotted Pythons
0.1 Sinaloan Milksnake (looking for a breedable male)
1.1 Snow and Albino Cornsnakes

well i did just change him over from reptibark to aspen but he had refused food prior to the change. it could be a factor but im not too sure.
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

now that i have had moment to relax i remembered that i did put a tiny bit of nutribac on the f/t rat that he ate on the 1st. could it have been some sort of allergic reaction to one of the probiotics in the nutribac?
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

That is possible, but difficult to say (toxicology). Curious why you would put NutriBac on in the first place?

I would possibly suspect impacted/ruptured bowel with the way the tail was hanging. I'm not an expert, but I would have a necropsy performed ASAP to determine if that was the problem (or what the problem was). A successful necropsy MUST be done as soon as possible since soft tissues break down very quickly even refridgerated. If the bowel is not the problem then crypto must be looked for in the GI tract along with any other bugs. The cost? That's part of keeping these animals. If it cost you $300 dollars or $500 and gives you something conclusive (closure) the money was well spent. Even if nothing is conclusive, it's still part of this hobby in my opinion. Very sorry for your loss...

Matt

>>now that i have had moment to relax i remembered that i did put a tiny bit of nutribac on the f/t rat that he ate on the 1st. could it have been some sort of allergic reaction to one of the probiotics in the nutribac?
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why? well nutribac is supposed to help stimulate the appetite and be beneficial in other ways so i figured since he had refused previously it couldnt hurt.

as far as me asking the cost, the vet clinic here doesnt do payment plans. so if it is $300-$500 that would mean my entire paycheck (or 1 1/2) and that wouldnt benefit me at all...even if it does give me "closure".
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

>>why? well nutribac is supposed to help stimulate the appetite and be beneficial in other ways so i figured since he had refused previously it couldnt hurt.

Okay, makes sense.

>>as far as me asking the cost, the vet clinic here doesnt do payment plans. so if it is $300-$500 that would mean my entire paycheck (or 1 1/2) and that wouldnt benefit me at all...even if it does give me "closure".

I understand financial pressures very well. My personal opinion is that is just part of the hobby (associated costs). That snake could very well have a pathogen that could destroy your entire collection (that's a LONG shot, but still possible). I would want to know and have it done. Just my opinions... If you do not have a necropsy done, treat EVERY animal as if it may carry crypto or IBD. Take NO chances and clean your hands well between each snake or use latex gloves between them. If it were a simple bowel problem a necropsy could solve this. But, if you don't get it done you have no idea and I'd treat everything as potentially suspect for being a vector. Hopefully your collection will remain stable.

Matt

talked to a local breeder today about getting a necro done. she said that the vet here doesnt have the expertize to do one. closest place is nashville which is an hour from here. no biggie but they cahrge an arm and a leg plus the snake has to be brought in within 24 hours after dying. but so far ive heard 3 different things that are sensible possibilities. latest thing i heard was IBD contracted from the redtails i have in my collection. so im going to separate the boas from the pythons (different rooms, people.....i dont have all of my snakes in one big tank) and even if IBD wasnt the cause at least I know I took some sort of preventative step to ensure that IBD isnt spread due to proximity between boas and pythons.
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

>>plus the snake has to be brought in within 24 hours after dying.

This is true for best results.

>>latest thing i heard was IBD contracted from the redtails i have in my collection. so im going to separate the boas from the pythons (different rooms, people.....i dont have all of my snakes in one big tank) and even if IBD wasnt the cause at least I know I took some sort of preventative step to ensure that IBD isnt spread due to proximity between boas and pythons.

IBD is still a bit of a 'mystery' disease. If you've had a major mite infestation, I'd be suspect. If not, just use good/clean practices when cleaning cages/feces and going to the next snake. The BIG thing: DON'T panic! But, keep your guard up and my opinion is get fecals run as soon as you can on a number of your snakes. This could help pinpoint a possible vector.

All the best and keep your chin up... we've all been there at some point!

Matt

contents checked immediately for cryptosporidium oocysts. It would more likely be a bacterial infection, but it is showing the classic signs of crypto. Don't cross-contaminate anything that has been in contact with it. How long have you had this snake?

Kelly

ummmmmmm lemme think. to the best of my knowledge i got him in feb 04.
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

Have you handled snakes from other collections or brought any new snakes into your collection in the last month or two? This is commonly how crypto is spread. As I said above, this probably is not crypto, but it sure is showing some very suspicious symptoms associated with it. The other issue is that the old "curtus group" seems to be more sensitive to crypto than other boid species and it is usually fatal when they acquire it. The key would be to have a vet run a fecal for it as soon as you can. It is a fairly simple acid-fast stain procedure. I did it a fair number of times years ago and any vet could do it easily. Keep us posted.

Kelly

as far as handling snakes from other collections, no. have i acquired any new additions? yes. got a new suriname redtail boa last week.
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

the boa i acquired is a baby (born may06)
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)

The marked vulnerability of these pythons to crypo is noteworthy. I was not aware of that. That is a cautionary note that many may want to consider, given the present poliferation of the species in the hobby. Thank you Kelly.

Bill,
I am not sure why this is the case, but over the years I have spoken with other breeders that have noticed this. I have not seen a case of crypto in a collection in many years, but the other thing that I have heard is that boa constrictors and burmese pythons seem to be the opposite, and appear to be more tolerant of it. Apparently many of this two species can recover, although they may be carriers for many months and still pose the treat of infecting others.

Kelly

I have also found out that redtails are carriers of IBD and some snakes (mostly pythons) are more susceptible to it than others. A friend of mine lost all of her retics due to IBD because she had redtails 15 feet away in separate tanks. So it is not limited to direct contact between boas and pythons.
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1.1.0 Colombian Redtail Boas (normals)
2.1.0 Sumatran Blood Pythons (normals)
1.0 Black Blood Python (normal)
1.0 Dumeril's Boa (normal)
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python (normal)
0.1 Surinam Redtail Boa (normal)