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...For making the Krysco & Judd thread most interesting and lively. Great debate and a lot interesting points made. Special props to Jetzen for bringing it to our attention.
The only thing I can't figure is why the mods don't seem to think its a "Hot Topic" - go figure!
Best Regards,
John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!
0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
Maybe I am mistaken but I noticed that the *Hot Topics* are usually geared toward beginner level enthusiasts with a 6 grade reading level.
Otherwise we would have had a *hot topic* everytime FR (Frank Retes) posts.
Some of the threads maybe should be transferred to a “Hot Topic” type of forum category, where it doesn’t get buried so fast. Some points were raised with this and remain unresolved. There are people who could really contribute important insight, but maybe are busy this week. Maybe even the guys that wrote that paper will catch wind of it and post something next week. I know I don’t usually add anything to something that gets a few days old, like it’s over and done with already. This is an example of something I would keep checking on to see if we get more info until it gets buried way down there. I hope some of the guys who know something will stumble upon that thread and contribute, even if it gets “old”. I thank all who contributed too.
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Upscale
>> I know I don’t usually add anything to something that gets a >>few days old, like it’s over and done with already.
I'm the same way, but since it was brought up again, ONE observation of mine...... in Krysko and Judd, they list as variations of meansi to include 1-25 bands. Comparing this part of their discription to the original discription of "goini", ALL the original type specimens of "goini" COULD be classified under meansi ("1 on the nape, 15-17 on the body and 5-6 on the tail"
total=21-24 crossbands for "goini". All scalation is the same except they give meansi as having 42-53 subcaudals, where all the "goini" specimens had 54. (minor variation IMO)
So, since ALL the "goini" type specimens could be classified as a variant of meansi, wouldn't this automatically invalidate meansi as a rediscription of "goini", making meansi the ACTUAL variant, and raising "goini" back to subspecific status? (at least temporarily)
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Ace
I thought the patternless are true "meansi" all the rest are mere integrades,hmmmm?
By allowing ALL the original type specimens of "goini" to be described under meansi, I BELIEVE they change the whole scope of the article. Since "goini" was described first, whether or not it's percieved as the main form or not, it takes prescedence, and therefore meansi SHOULD be goini. I guess, you can debate which VARIATION is the main form, but meansi itself shouldn't be it's ssp. name.
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Ace
Well that makes sense, but anyone with common sense should realize it's just a simple mere variation of the eastern common L.g.getula, it's really not that unusual to have strangely unique populations within many ranges of Lampropeltis or other animals.
Somebody below suggested that maybe the “real” thing is extinct. I agree with that. I don’t know enough about genetics, but I think that’s why the “formerly” dominant trait (patternless Means/ Goini) is carried by the males. What we see are intergrades because for whatever reason the thing had a limited range when it did exist as pure. I hope we could line breed for patternless and “recreate” what is basically an extinct and very cool looking kingsnake. I do believe the patternless trait is the key, as we know you do not get patternless animals from breeding florida to eastern, or any other local combination in the “king”dom. Could be an extremely washed out eastern speckled king. Maybe it really is just a local oddity not deserving of anything more than the interest of those who would like to breed the patternless trait into other forms they are working with...
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Upscale
Thanks for your input, us hobbyists have a longway to go, but i believe the truth will come out, time will tell.
ANYWAY, about those in the pic can you elaborate?
The male was the “oranger” one, produced by Tim Ricks. I bought it from Chris Culotta. The “whiter” one was the best female I could find. I had to buy the pair the guy had to get this female. This was very black and white, had a red tounge, the ventral was pure white, unlike anything I had seen. I wish I had more pictures. They did not produce any patternless and I lost patience to wait another year and sold them off. I regret it terrible ever since. I reacted too quickly. Neither of these are really the perfect light patternless I was hoping to aquire, just pretty close. I have saved pictures that others have posted of some really awesome examples, and that is what I was hoping for. I had an intense, but short, obsession with the patternless thing. I gave up. I would like to see it in the ghost Brooks, or borrowed into those Brooks projects to clean them up in the extreme. I think the less pattern a brooks has, the better. Just my opinion. I like that they get better with age, so many colorful hatchlings get worse. Not all patternless are light either, some are dark and therefore probably less desireable. I was thinking it could be a natural selection to “mimic” the water moccasin that is found throughout the swamplands of the “Goini” range? What do you think of that idea?
Kingsnakes mimic the venomous? sure why not,lol! I have several that think they're rattlers.
Well I think there's no doubt they're "descended" from L.g.g. Even Krysko and Judd place them as very closely related to L.g.g. The question becomes how long was this descention, and whether it justifies classification as a ssp. As I've said before, I think Kevin Enge's work on mosaic Kings pretty much answers that question.
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Ace
I recently saw a pic of a group of "goini" hatchlings some of them looked like Ga. easterns and some of them looked semi-patternless. the mom looked like a typical blotched, don't know what the dad looked like, very interesting.
Well, to put this debate to rest once and for all, someone could just use the methods used by Klauber and Tanzer to show polymorphism in the Eastern Kingsnakes. Both Klauber and Tanzer showed by hatching out clutches of WC Cali Kings and Greybanded Kings that each of their percieved species/ssp. were pattern variants of the same snake. By breeding an Eastern to an Apalachicola King (as close to, if not both WC if possible), one could prove whether or not they're actually polymorphs or distinct ssp.
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Ace
Now somebody is making sense, and it's about time, my snakes are all c.b. but that would be a great project anyway.
I have my personal opinion on the validiity of meansi, putting those aside though, I don't see how your suggestion would "once and for all" end the debate...maybe I just am not getting it, but i'm not sure how this would work? I believe that it was shown that both "alterna" and "blairi" could be produced from a pairing of either parents (blairi/blairi or alterna/alterna) and with California's (banded/banded or striped/striped) could produce either appearance. Now with this in mind you are saying that breeding two Eastern kings could produce a patternless "meansi" animal or two patternless "meansi" could produce a pure getula looking offspring? Or by hatching out WC gravid getula or meansi clutches you could see offspring representative of the other ssp? I'm not following? But it's probably just me, do you have a link to the work you are referring to perhaps that would help me understand how those methods could be of use here.
....One thing of interest on a different note, a textbook getula was bred to a textbook "brooksi" many years ago and produced animals indistiguishable from the banded "goini". From hatchling to adult they maintained this appearance....makes me wonder what became of those, at least the ones I know didn't escape from the kid working with them!
From my understanding, they proved it out by producing both pattern variants from mixed breedings. If they are seperate ssp. they should in turn produce all intermediate forms of both subs. If however, they are pattern phases of the same snake, they should in turn produce both pattern phases, and some intermediates, proving out their relationship to each other.
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Ace
One of the things that makes it difficult with these is the time effect of ontogenetic change or whatever. That is, what seems patternless as an adult may well have had some significant pattern as a hatchling. So it's still a big guessing game with cb stuff, huh? Same with the stripes. Some almost seem to reverse with age.
For sure many "crosses" have been done with goini already and there aren't many patternless offspring from those breedings.
I think Brandon has some of the sweetest of them all with his axanthics/stripes etc.
Different than Floridana?? I think they are.
Whatever you call 'em.
Honestly, for many years I thought your average goini was one of the plainest least attractive getula there was..
To me, many still are. I like sharp contrasts and bright colors...haha!. lol!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
....have a pic of your patternless male as a juvenile? 
Interesting point. I'm not sure how you'd take into consideration the ontogenetic change if the juvenile started out as a banded, would it still be considered a patternless?
Although, Krysko and Judd do state as one of the variations of meansi to be 1-25 bands. So, it doesn't nessecarily have to be completely patternless to be a meansi. It just has to "fit" into their percieved classification of one. (I'd think anyway)
I'd agree the truest test would be to breed a "true" patternless to an Eastern and see what pips out though.
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Ace
No I don't. I got him last year as a young adult.
I see "pattern" in him for sure.. just not a lot, I guess.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
Don't forget that K&J include ontogenetic chages in their analysis of pattern. They also looked at the difference in terms of where the pigment occurs within an individual scale. Without going back to look, I think floridana has pigment only on the front half of each individual scale, while goini/meansi/mine-ie/moe has the pigment in the center.
Maybe you could take a look see at your snakes? I don't have either race -( whaaa...
Regards,
John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!
0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
...it's even a bit more specific. Not sure. Anyway, it's how the center of each scale may be lightened up. In the general "band" area the scale is supposed to have a nearly straight line from top to bottom,almost cutting it in half, so to speak. In the otherwise dark scales their can be a center spot. However in the case of a "patternless" snake I would assume there to be a "gray area" of interpretation.
My snakes have both. The patternless has the center spots mostly. Or a curved semi-spot
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!
im more into the cal kings....lol the mods made one a "hot topic" and it didnt even have a reply.
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