Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone who gives a rat's(or mouse's)ass about their reptile pet should really reconsider the animals long term needs and health.Would you treat it's care like a cat or dog if it get's sick?I did and here's what I got.I've had many reptiles over 20 years time and this is what happened to the supposedly(sp?) tough reptiles.1 iguana of 3 years hit it's stomach climbing from a limb and ruptured it's spleen and bled to death internally before I made it to the Vet.Iguana #2 at 4 years old got a Cancerous skin conition that caused black sores and no Vet here could fix and had to put down(out of my respect for inhuman life).My 5 year old Dumerils monitor got Cancer in a rear leg,huge tumor($600)and it came back 6 months later.2 savs were killed by Vets who gave them doses of medication that left them immobile in the late 80's.A 12 year old Sav that had cataracts died of a stroke like seizure.My sweetpea (4 year old Blackthroat)just died from unknown parasites (cost me $400)to tell me nothing.Sweetpea saved me $200 by dieing here and me buring her in my garden.It still sucks bad!!!!!!!My Prehensile tail skink I've had for 15 years and she won't die or get sick.Go figure.If you care.If you think they are disposable animals as many do,I feel sorry for them more than you.Please don't look at them as something to show off to your friends but as living creatures that didn't choose you and need help.NUff said by me.I love to rant for no reason but to put things into perspective.I repesct all living anaimals(except my ex wives)KIDDING! I respect one of them PLEASE THINK before you buy!

sounds like u got a regular funeral home going.

(bad humor i know)

sorry for your losses

My mother went through a similar ordeal with canine's, not monitors but it seamed everytime she got a replacement it would develope a problem (cancer was the trend in the 90's). No matter what she did (research family history) nothing seamed to matter every few years she had an animal that was costing an arm and a leg to keep or needed to be put down. It takes a different sort of person to deal with that and press on, sometimes we are to blame sometimes its just fate.

I think people like yourself, that care for an animals wellfare should stay with the hobby. The hobby needs people like you that pay attention to their animal and know what it needs. Or at a bare minimum strive to give the animal its needs no matter what hurdles they need to cross.

The reptile hobby is filled with failures and successes. There are those that cashed in on the get rich quick idea and others stuck with loads of animals they will never make there money back with. You at least care about the animal and care for it out of want not need. Theres a difference.

A friend of mine suffered a major loss in his boa breeding this past season and lost three prized animals. Instead of looking back and questioning, what happened, why, and how can it be prevented in the future. He has decided to give up and sell everything.

I know this thread was more about educating all of us on the potential costs and animal can incure, but I hope you are not trying to convince yourself not to jump back in. You did your best your cared from within and mother nature gave you a bad hand.

I respect your sharing all your past medical cost, I hope people learn from your history so they can better perpare for there own. Those were just medical charges what about caging cost, feeding bills, the changes to you homes utility bills. All of which are hidden costs we seam to forget when we get a great deal on a $20 nile monitor.

I salute you and wish you the best. I feel you are more than a normal hobbiest and are exactly what this hobby needs more of.

People that care more for the animal rather than the doller.

Good Luck
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.11 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

i guess we all have a bad stroke of luck every now and then...
in one year , i lost my yellow throated plated lizard,myfriend watched him for three days i came back to find him deathly sick, puking and such, the vet said he had probably been poisoned dont know how he gotpoisoned
then i had saved a green iguana from a pet store(very bad idea) i got him a fecal check, nothing showed up, 2 month later he died from a parasitic overload, go figure
then my bearded dragon died of old age

i guess it just happens, does sound like i might need to start a grave yard(extremely bad humor and not even funny)

I think this should be understood before you actually keep reptiles.

Reptiles are wild animals, therefore do not go by our rules and expectations.

To understand reptiles, you must understand, that in nature there is no expectations for a long life. It can happen, but its very very rare. There is no expectations of reaching adulthood(sexual maturity) there is only attempts to do so.

The reality of what this means is simple, most all that are born, die before they become adults. And the adult population is not stable on its own. It is under constant attack by predators, disease and habitat change/destruction.

I imagine its one of the reasons reptiles can and do reproduce at one half their normal adult size. I also imagine its why even large monitors can reproduce at one year of age. I could go on and on, the point is, the average lifespan is very very short. They(an individual) have a 99% change on not ever reaching adulthood.(varies with the type of year, but very accurate)

What amazes me is, somehow people on these forums(keepers) want to compare this and that with nature, you know, what they think the monitors need and use, and eat and conditions, etc. But they never think about how many die and how often.(the real nature)

How this applies to captivity is, you as humans have expectations, you have that with all sort of things. You personally have all sorts of expectations about your own life. You want to do this and that, travel, see things, take vacations, go places, learn stuff that has nothing to do with supporting your life. You expect to live a long time, have a family, make a kid or ten. Have a life mate or ten. But you expect to life a long life.

What do monitors expect out of life? what is their goals. As far as I can tell, wild reptiles only hope to live to the next day. Their entire life purpose is to make a baby or more(as many as they can). Everything they do is in that direction. To survive and reproduce. Sounds sad hey.

Humans take joy in doing stuff, you know doing stuff away from work, like build model railroads, model planes, hiking, watching animals(and not eating them)(or shooting them and sometimes eating them) They particapate in all sort of hobbies. They also work to support their lifes and attempt to make a family and sustain the population(doing this too well)

Monitors seem to enjoy stuff too. They seem to enjoy being successful at daily goals, finding food, making a shelter, etc. They seem to take joy in pairing up and enjoy a successful nesting, etc. They seem to enjoy doing the things that are included in their drive to recruit and recruiting. They enjoy doing the things that allow them to exsist.

But a long life is not understood as its not common, its so very rare in nature.

The reason I bring this up is, you talk like you have failed because you only measure success with longevity. With wild reptiles longevity is not important, whats important is, day to day successful events. Their joy, their importance is succeeding in day to day tasks, they have no expectation of a long life. They hope to have a productive life. And the only thing they do productively is reproduce.

What I am saying is, you should not worry about how long they live(thats a human thing) but worry about day to day successful events.

Where you have been hoodwinked, you have been taught that longevity is important, its not. Science and zoos promote longevity. Think about that, a long life of doing nothing, is not a life, its torture. Specially to animals who value lifes events more then life. They are not people who seem to be much the opposite. We tend to value long life over life events.

Think about a captive elephant living 35 years on a half an acre. Think about a 50 year old ball python that never grew up, never reproduced, and was kept in a tiny cage with no stimulation, and no life events. Are these good things????? I really question these as goals for keeping animals.

Well we cannot give them all of lifes joys, but we can give them the oppertunity to achieve basic life events, we can allow them an attempt to recruit, and we can support them enough to do that often. Consider, a female reptile or bird, exposes its life to extreme danger to accomplish nesting. (and nesting is a side thought with you and zoos and science)(how sad)

So Brg, don't take shorter then "expected" lifespans as a failure, take failure to allow successful life events during the time they were alive as your failure. As simple as these thoughts are, people do not understand that its normal and a major life event for a male monitor to fight with another male monitor. Its what they do(they seek to do this). Yet, you all will ruin their lifes trying to prevent something so natural. Just some goofy thoughts from the goofy thought gallery. Cheers

In my time here at the monitor forum (Going on 8 years now though I'm not a regular poster) I have learned very much from FR's posts and among them is the most important lesson he's trying to impart in his previous post. In the wild, animals are not guarenteed they'll even make it through the first day of life, let alone continue to make it through the number of seasons it takes to become a mature, productive member of its species. All species have a very high mortality rate of their young, most of the time 98% across the species board, even among mammals despite longer parental care periods. In the wild, only the strong, smart and fit survive the flood of predators that hunt every species. We, as humans, see the number of these animals and assume that each and every one will survive to become a valuable member of their species and we interfere much to this end in our keeping of the various species. Monitors included. In every clutch there will be weak hatchlings, semi-weak hatchlings and strong hatchlings. Those who are weak die almost immediately.. from starvation, predation or other problems. The semi-weak individuals survive a few months.. maybe more...but usually not long enough to reproduce. This is what nature is about. Producing strong, healthy adaptive offspring. The weak do not survive to reproduce (Part of the problem with the human population and all the diseases that run rampant among us) only the strong survive long enough to truly contribute to their species. A clutch of 50 eggs may only have a hatch rate of 50% in the wild. Out of the 25 that hatched...10 may fall to predators in the first day.. or they all may. What the point is..there is no guarentee of a long and successful life. Nature is harsh and unrelenting and not every animal is fit to survive... not even in captivity is this a guarentee for any monitor.

Take me for instance...On May 20th 1999 I recieved a 9 inch Juvenile Bosc monitor. She was estimated to be about 12-18 months old at the time and definately wild caught, not farmed. She was in great condition when I got her. Not underweight and only slightly dehydrated. She ate and drank the first day she arrived and had the nasty temper to boot that marked a rather healthy juvenile. I had this monitor almost 7 years. She passed on November 18th, 2005. I made mistakes yes but even with the mistakes I made, she passed infertile eggs at least 10 times within my care.. No telling how many times she ovulated and reabsorbed the clutch instead. However, due to limitations on space, I had no opportunity to find her a mate and breed her. The point of the matter is. She was a strong individual. Even so she didn't live to the maximum life space of a Bosc. But she would have reproduced possibly successfully if I'd have been able to allow it. No one will ever know why she never reached her maximum lifespan but it doesn't matter. There are always variables and always complications that assail the daily life of all animals, including those kept in captivity...especially those in captivity. Captivity is not the ideal... the wild is the ideal and captivity a mere shadow of nature that we control. In the end, its not about what they do or how they do it.. but what is accomplished within their alotted timespan. This is the same ideal we apply to humans. Its not the amount of time, its what you do with it that counts.

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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boas (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
7.11.7.Leopard geckos (2.1 Blizzards (Caine, Phoenix, and Mirage), 0.2 Tangerine Albinos (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short, and Casper), 1.0 Tremper Albino (Mycah), 1.1 Triple. het blizzard x tang albino x patternless (Malice, Malfeas), 1.0 Full Stripe Chocolate Tremper Albino (Discord), 0.1 pastel (Raven) and 1.5 Normals) 0.0.3 het albinos, 0.0.2 patternless blizzard/albinos, 0.0.2 - 50%possible triple hets (blizzard x albino x patternless)
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros) (R.I.P. November 18, 2005)
13 rats (plus pups)
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Ashe and Hercules)