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KUDOS to RDR and Python Dreams for sharing so much info about their unique projects...it makes genetic theory-modeling more fun for those of us who don't have the means to maintain large collections...

An "armchair breeder's" theory on possible platty and crystal genetics:

Here it seems we may have a "hidden gene" that is invisible in the het and homozygous forms, yet when cocktailed with leucistic-type codoms, produces platties, crystals, "butter-platties"...and???

Facts:

-Platty daddy throws only visible lessers and normals when bred to unrelated normals.
-Platty daddy throws lessers, platties, and normals when bred to some of his normal offspring.
-No platties have been produced from F2 Platty-Daddy crosses.
-Butter-platties are produced when butters are bred to potential "Platty-makers"
-If the hidden gene that creates Platties when combined with lesser had a VISIBLE super or homozygous form, it probably would have turned up in platty-daddy to daughter crosses by now.
-All 5 crystals appear to have mojave-like patterns and are therfore probably not simple-recessive, but linked to the mojave via some type of codom behavior genetically...plus, simple-recessive pattern mutations are RARE.

What if the riddle behind the platty and crystal phenomenae is as simple as this: acts like a simple recessive in the het and homozygous form, and works like a codom in the double heterozygous form?

This could explain all the above and the following could be true:

-RDR has homozygous animals for the platty gene, that are phenotypically normal and appear normal, but will statistically throw twice as many platty-type animals on down the road when bred to leucistic-type genes!

-Since the gene only seems to manifest itself when combined with leucistic-type genes (no pastel platties turned up), then it could theoretically be possible to create mojave-platties, "Cinne-platties", black pastel-platties, yellow-belly-platties, russo-platties, mocha-platties, etc....(whoa! wish i had some confirmed "platty-makers" to breed mojaves, cinnies, mochas, and ivories to...)

-The hidden gene came from the mother of the crystal, and NOT the mojave father because if it did, the mojave father would have been a crystal himself.

-A crystal bred to an unrelated normal would produce half Mojaves, and half phenotypic normals, all of which would be 50 percent het the necessary "platty/crystal-causing additive."

-A platty and crystal are actually double-heterozygous animals, but their genetics appear to be passed on partly like homozygous simple recessive animal's genes are...because half the cocktail of their genetics only manifests itself when combined with a leucistic-type gene!

-Butters will produce a leucistic-type super form.

-All grandsons of platty daddy are 50 percent het the "missing gene"

Perhaps the platty-causing gene, and the crystal-causing gene are not the same, but behave in similar fashion? RDR and Python dreams will probably be able to tell us all for sure in a few years....

I guess I was really bored tonight....

correction: according to my wild theory, direct sons of platty daddy and/or a crystal would be 50 percent het the missing gene, and grandsons 25 percent het because if this theory is correct, platty daddy and the crystals are double-het animals, NOT homozygous for anything.

I do think there is one copy of a gene that turns a lesser into a platy, a butter into a butter daddy (or is it platy butter?), and a phantom into a 44. That would explain how these animals where produced without inbreeding in the case of the platy butter and 44. I also agree that it's likely that there is only one copy of a different gene inherited from the mom that turns the mojaves into crystals but of course it’s early to be more than a hunch.

However, you need to take it a step further to explain how platy X normal never produces platy. If platy where a combination of two independent genes then 25% of the platy X normal offspring should get both genes and be platy.

I believe the explanation is that the "hidden" gene that dilutes a lesser to make a platy is yet another allele in the platy complex. I think it is likely that mojave, lesser, phantom, Vin Russo, butter, the hidden dilute gene, and perhaps the crystal making gene are all DIFFERENT versions of the SAME gene (alleles). In this scenario the platy gives the lesser gene to half his offspring and the dilute gene to the other half. No offspring can get two copies of the same gene from the same parent. It would explain when we have and have not seen platys produced so far.

I don't think the cinnamon and yb genes are related to the platinum complex (I hear VPI came up with that term and I think it’s the best so far). In fact I think several breeding results have indicated that yb is separate.

some very good points! I would suspect that the "dillutant" gene you are referring to, must be coupled with the platties, butter-platties, 44's etc., in a manner more similar to homozygous animals, and this is the reason why platties are not produced by platties when bred to outcrossed normals.

For example: If you breed a homozygous genotype like say a superpastel to a normal, you get all heterozygous pastels and zero supers(homozygous animals). This strange quality of the "dillutant" gene would seem to explain why platties do not throw platties when bred to unrelated normals, and yet, their must be more to the story of this gene, because normals obviously can carry it without having any phenotypic signs of carrying it?

So, the key to formulating a model that explains and predicts this "dillutant" gene, must be to undertstand that it behaves half like a codom phenotypically, and half like a simple recessive genotypically...sounds confusing but it really simplifies the riddle in a hurry.

regardless....someone out there will breed a mojave or cinny to an animal close enough to platty daddy to find out....if my theory is correct, then when RDR crosses a mojave with a known platty maker, he will produce crystals in maryland!

-the 44's would be explained as the phantom version of a combination of the phantom and "dillutant" gene.

-it could be possible that it is impossible to produce a lesser-mojave, lesser-phantom, or lesser-russo leucistic from a lucy X Normal cross....just like a superpastel cannot throw a superpastel itself when bred to a normal...rdr's lucy clutches have yeilded only one half of the lucy so far, but no F2 Lucies from unrelated normals...they have plenty of eggs that will hatch this year, and i would suspect that there is a chance, due to the nature of how the lucy gene behaves, that a lucy cannot be produced like a bumblebee can...if he hatches one we'll all know for sure(lol)

wonder if anyone is breeding mojaves to animals close enough to platty daddy to carry the dilutant gene? assuming the crystal is a combo of this gene with mojave, someone might pop out a crystal out of nowhere this year?

morph king has been breeding platty offspring with mojaves for a while and has not popped up a crystal yet...but that could be explained by the fact that according to this theory, platty daddy and the crystal mom are only heterozygous for the dillutant gene, and only 50% of their offspring carry it...

it sounds so confusing but it makes sense....

Ralph has yet to sell any normal looking platty offspring that is why no one has produced any platinums but him. I agree with Randy, it is the normal offspring of the platinum that makes the platinum rather than a lesser. Lesser to lesser will not make a platty and lesser to a normal looking lesser offspring will not make a platty, the normal must be a direct descendant of the platinum to carry the trait.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

"I would suspect that the "dillutant" gene you are referring to, must be coupled with the platties, butter-platties, 44's etc., in a manner more similar to homozygous animals, and this is the reason why platties are not produced by platties when bred to outcrossed normals.

For example: If you breed a homozygous genotype like say a super pastel to a normal, you get all heterozygous pastels and zero supers(homozygous animals)."

A basic tenet to remember here is that genes come in pairs, one from each parent. A super pastel only gives one of its pair of each gene to each offspring, including only one of it’s pair of genes at the pastel location. The super pastel passes one copy of the pastel gene to each offspring and the normal for pastel parent will give a normal copy of the gene at the pastel location so the pair will produce only regular (het) pastels.

You're right to compare the allele theory to a homozygous dominant. It's very similar but there is a different name for it that I forgot but homozygous is not correct. In the pastel example where there are two different versions of the gene - the pastel mutant and the normal – but there could be more than two versions of the same gene. A multiple mutant allele group has been documented in corn snakes. One mutant version is motley and another is striped and of course there is also at least one "normal" version of this gene. If an egg gets the striped version from one parent and the motley version from the other it has no room for a normal copy to give to any of it's offspring since it can't have three copies of the same gene. Likewise, in this allele theory, the platy daddy would have one lesser version of the platy complex gene and one dilute version of the platy complex gene but no normal versions of the platy complex gene (PCG?). Each of its offspring would get either a lesser or a dilute version but couldn't get both or a normal copy from the platy daddy.

"This strange quality of the "dillutant" gene would seem to explain why platties do not throw platties when bred to unrelated normals, and yet, their must be more to the story of this gene, because normals obviously can carry it without having any phenotypic signs of carrying it?"

I'm not sure if RDR ever said they didn't have any signs. He might have said they where normal looking but there are a wide range of animals seen in a group of "normals". I wouldn't be surprised if the normal sib platy offspring have clear belies as do some snakes considered normals.

"So, the key to formulating a model that explains and predicts this "dillutant" gene, must be to undertstand that it behaves half like a codom phenotypically, and half like a simple recessive genotypically...sounds confusing but it really simplifies the riddle in a hurry."

I don't think of it as simple recessive at all, especially since homozygous dilutes are apparently unremarkable or it's homozygous lethal since RDR has done lots of breedings with what should be dilute hets without reporting a visible homozygous dilute. You could think of dilute as a gene that takes the place of a normal version of the PCG that would tone a platy down to a lesser.

"regardless....someone out there will breed a mojave or cinny to an animal close enough to platty daddy to find out"

What makes you think cinny is related? I suppose anything is possible but I wouldn't expect cinnamon to fit into the PCG allele group.

"....if my theory is correct, then when RDR crosses a mojave with a known platty maker, he will produce crystals in maryland!"

It doesn't seem likely to me that the crystal is the dilute (i.e. platy) version of the mojave. Again, anything is possible but I wouldn't expect it to dilute mojave which generally starts off darker than lesser into crystal which I would say is lighter than platy. Maybe the crystal mom is something more like the phantom. The apparent super phantom is fairly dark. Maybe the crystal is a fairly dark version of the "leucistic" from combining two of the darker end genes in this group.

"-the 44's would be explained as the phantom version of a combination of the phantom and "dillutant" gene."

Agreed

"-it could be possible that it is impossible to produce a lesser-mojave, lesser-phantom, or lesser-russo leucistic from a lucy X Normal cross....just like a superpastel cannot throw a superpastel itself when bred to a normal"

Exactly, because a super pastel can't give two copies of the same gene to the same offspring. It just happens that both copies of it's gene at the pastel location look the same so you can't tell which pastel offspring got grandma's copy and which got grandpa's. If mojave and lesser are two different versions of the same gene then in MKR's clutches from lesser mojave leucistic bred to normal half the eggs will get a lesser gene passed down from their paternal grandfather and half will get the mojave gene passed down from their paternal grandmother but none will get both and none will get a normal copy of that PCG from their white snake dad since he doesn't have one to give.

I agree with you that the "normal" sibs of platty offspring may have a very feintly detectable phenotypic trait...RDR are the only ones who know for sure but i am also open to the possibility that it is a completely hidden gene to the naked eye in the heterozygous form phenotypically(like a simple recessive), and needs a complimentary gene like lesser, butter, or phantom to bring out the combos like platties, 44's, and butter-daddies(behaving like a codom in the double heterozygous form), and yet is passed to offspring like a homozygous animal, yeilding one or the other half of the gene-combo as you explained above.

since we seem to agree on the possibility that the platty-daddy morph passes on his trait combo like a homozygous animal would seem to(all offspring carry either the lesser gene OR the mystery "dillutent" gene), the
the fact that platty-daddy to lesser crosses make platties could be accounted for the fact that the F2 platty recieved the dillutent gene from platty-daddy, and the lesser gene from the platty-daughter. if RDR does not produce a lucy from a lucy bred to a normal, this homozygous-acting quality would be confirmed.

i also agree with you that the crystal-causing gene may be different from the platty-causing gene, but they still may behave in the same baffling, yet potentially quite simply explained manner as we have been discussing. however, if they are the same, RDR could very well make crystals himself in maryland, and Python Dreams could make platty-daddies in california(as soon as he can get a lesser male to breed to crystal-mommy
but, even if they are different, it would be interesting to see how the other lucy-related genes, more particularly lesser and butter would look like "crystalized," and see what the mojave would look like "Platty-daddy-ized"

would other solid patternless morphs combine with the crystal and platty-causing genes in a similar manner? would other codoms combine in a similar manner? if platty does pass on his genetics like a homozygous animal and only the normal offspring of a platty carry the mystery gene, then only RDR and Python Dreams have the capability to even try because neither has released normal-appearing offspring out of platty-daddy and crystal-mommy! RDR hasnt bred codoms all that extensively into normal sibs, so maybe it is not exclusive to lucy-related genes...perhaps any codom can be "crystalized," or "platty-daddy-ized?" the only reason i initially suspect that it would need to be lucy related is because there are 44's, butter-daddies, and platty-daddies...no non-lucy type combos with the dilutent gene yet...

if i were RDR, and i had so many sib females, i would breed mojaves, cinnies, russo-line-lucies, and a number of codoms to these normal-looking, lesser sibs direct out of platties to confirm or disprove the above...we all know RDR would LOVE to crank out a maryland-born crystal!

this theory would be cool because normal males direct out of platty-daddy would all be 100% heteryzgous for the "mystery" gene that is passed invisibly like a simple recessive, and yet acts like a codom in the double-heterozygous form....

There you go again Randy...making us all think!

on that note...

It doesn't seem likely to me that the crystal is the dilute (i.e. platy) version of the mojave. Again, anything is possible but I wouldn't expect it to dilute mojave which generally starts off darker than lesser into crystal which I would say is lighter than platy.

Isn't there also the possibility that the darker contrasted Mojave could actually be the reason for the lighter end result?(Assuming the crystal is actually dilute cross of course.)

Sort of the way darker het amelanistics are said to produce nicer(high white)albinos.(Although i hate to bring another gene in for comparison,it's the only analogy that springs to mind atm.)

What do you think?
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

...not sure off hand, but i believe RDR has produced platties from platty-daddy X lesser daughter crosses, so this would support the theory that the "dilutent" gene is passed independently of the lesser gene, because if it was really one or the other, a lesser daughter would never be a "platty-maker."

???

This is why i am leaning more towards the wild thought that the "hidden" gene is nothing more complicated than a gene that is passed on to offspring like a heterozygous simple-recessive trait is passed on, yet reacts with other codoms like a codom. this concept is the crux of the model i have centered my theory around. a lot of answers will be answered this summer...it will be fun to see how far off or right on an armchair breeder can be lol!

Assuming that everyone has been forthcoming with all of their clutch data and continues to do so, you may know as soon as this year. THAT, however, is highly unlikely. This looks like a nice thesis for an advanced bio student...

IMO the legacy owners (I can't really call them the 'creators' of a particualr morph any more than mixing blue and yellow makes me the 'creator' of green) of these platinum complex morphs want to perpetuate the mystery (hence the value, or perceived value) and may never want to "come clean" with the recipe if they ever figure it out themselves completely.

Not being a cynic, just a realist.....

Let me clarify before someone rips into me for what might be perceived as whining or big-boy bashing, I'm not condemning anyone for wanting to keep secrets as this whole "ball" game is played. That's half the fun- all of the speculation.

No misinterpretation here! If it weren't for RDR and a few others who REALLY "got balls," none of us genetic "lay-theorists" would be able to dabble in the fascinating world of genetic theory via today's most sizzlin' medium: python regius! Sure beats fruit flies if you ask me! of course the breeders should be able to sit on secrets for as long as they want!
...who says herp genetics should be a matter of public record i just would like to publicly say that i appreciate the ability to so, and acknowlege the fact that without sites/organizations like RDR and a few others, students of genetics would never have been caught up in the ball game to begin with...does this hurt or help the ball game? i would argue that the public display of genetic mystery allures far more than it alienates, and will yeild more capital benefit for everyone in the hobby in the long term, than secrecy will...the hype of the platty story channelled in a lot of new people and proves this...just like sharing research in science exponentiates everyone's research and benefit.
i would also argue that we are still in the wild west days of ball python breeding...not even the herp hobbiests realize how perfect a pet-phenomenae they are dealing with this is! as populations become more urbanized, genetic phenomenae and herp husbandry becomes better understood, explored, and propogated, balls could someday become as nearly standard a pet as dogs or cats???

In the crosses of platinum to lesser daughter the platinum occurs because it recieved the hidden from the platinum and the lesser from the lesser daughter. Very simple to understand, but not simple recessive.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

i agree with this possibility...going along with this presumption, a lesser that is directly out of platty-daddy is not a gene carrier for the "dillutent/mystery gene" because it recieved the lesser gene from PD and not the mystery gene half. if this turns out to be the case, then NONE of the lessers out of platty-daddy carry the mystery gene! and unless ralph has sold normal males or females out of PD, no one has the missing gene to make platties except for him! could be that RDR already knows this...

If you go through the breeding records that ralph has it is easy to come to that conclusion and I'm sure if I can figure it out then I'm sure Ralph has too. I also think that others have figured it out and that is why lessers have dropped in price, now that they know they can't produce a platinum with just a lesser, the price reflects that.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

"...not sure off hand, but i believe RDR has produced platties from platty-daddy X lesser daughter crosses, so this would support the theory that the "dilutent" gene is passed independently of the lesser gene, because if it was really one or the other, a lesser daughter would never be a "platty-maker.""

I don't think so, but again, I might have read or be remembering his results wrong. If he did produce a platy that would have had to get the dilute gene from an offspring of lesser X normal it would tend to disprove the single dilute gene theory (the only possibility would be that the normal mom just happened to carry the dilute gene).