Reptile & Amphibian Forums

TOTAL CRAP YOU SAY? Yep......that would be what you call it when you cant get $4K for an adult snake that you bought for $15K as a hatchling two years ago.

The reason the market has crashed is because we are fresh out of new "investors". Why is that you ask? Because nobody's doing their part to keep the market growing. When the morphs multiply at a rate 100 times faster than the number of buyers, what do you think will happen?

These snakes were supposed to be expensive because they are rare...meaning there are more buyers than there are snakes. Prices are falling by 75% a year because the morphs are multiplying like rodents and there are no new buyers...because all of these so-called "business people" were actually naive enough to think they could just produce 200 morphs a year and that there would automatically be buyers for them. Very few of them actually took the time to sit down and think that there might actually have to be new buyers if a thousand $10,000 snakes were actually going to get bought last year.

It is surprising how many people really beleived they could make $100K in a year from a $10K investment and not actually have to operate like a business. A lot of *real* breeders (ones who spend more on advertising than $100 a year for a classifieds account) made a lot of money off a lot of these naive people from 2001 to 2004. Now all those naive people are producing a hundred of these co-dom morphs a year, they spend no money on advertising, have web pages that a 10 year old could have done (or none at all because they think a classifieds account is good 'nuff), they don't bother doing a spell check when they run ads (did someone mention professionalism earlier?) and they do absolutely nothing to help build the beloved "Market"...

And now they're all actually dumb enough to sit there scratching their heads wondering why their $20,000 snakes aren't selling. duh........

If this is just a hobby to someone, that's fine...but nobody spent $10K on a snake so they could look at it. If you want to make real money, you might actually have to operate like real a business at some point.

With all the money these folks made in 2001-2004, it's a shame none of them were forward-thinkers enough to maybe spend money on a spot in a magazine other than Reptiles and try to actually market the Ball Python game (which is now being called pyramid scheme by other reptile folks) to people other than the ones who were already interested in them. Anyone ever think that a quarter page spot in Forbes or National Geographic might make ten times more money than three full page ads in reptiles? Hmmm............

Now days not only are there too many morphs being produced for the number of actual buyers out there, but there are also all the adult snakes on the market because folks are dumping there entire collections.

Is it too late to actually get more people into ball morphs? I dunno but if someone doesn't do something sooner or later, we are gonna have a new cornsnake market on our hands with only slightly higher prices.......and don't kid yourselves....balls arent that much harder to breed and there clutches arent that much smaller.

I dont mean to rain in on anyones parade.........just hoping this might get a few folks to wake up and take a good whiff of reality.

What is so bad about the corn snake market? Nearly all morphs are widely availiable for a very good price. Oh that's right this is the ball python forum where alot of "breeders" only care about making money.

The good news is there will always be a market for pet ball pythons. once the price of an albino reaches $100-200 many buyers will be around buying pets. So you will make your money back even if it takes 10 years.

Sadly the truth is that breeding snakes has turned into a PUPPY MILL type of operation for many people. Stuffing 4'-5' pythons into as small a cage as possible just to breed and make money. IMHO it will be better once the prices have crashed.

Is then you get the people that only spend $50 on a snake and if it gets sick just let it die cause hey it's only $50 bucks to replace but the vet might cost a couple hundred. I don't think any animal should cost less than a trip to the vet would cost, maybe then people would take care of them better.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons
ballpythonworld.com

Do you really think a "new wave" of investors would have entered the ball python breeding arena if ads were taken out in Forbes magazine? I think not. Just like virtually all other "get rich quick" schemes, those who got in early made their money. Those who got in later are too busy trying to figure out how to recoup their investment than to worry about placing ads in non-reptile publications.

I do agree with you on the website issue. There's a number of sites that are nothing more than "Under Construction" logos and "Coming Soon" sections. I've seen several that haven't been updated in years. Most "reptile people" are not "business people" and it's unlikely that they'll be "converted."

While some individuals look at ball python breeding as a way to make a "fast buck," these people seem completely oblivious to the fact that those with a serious interest in snakes have been keeping them for decades because they enjoy snakes for what they are. Most "ball python investors" don't fall into this category and hobbyists who are in it because they really like the animals don't give a crap if the ball python market crashes or not. As a matter of fact, I've had a number of people complain to me that there used to be a variety of herps to see at reptile shows - now they might as well be called "ball python shows."

While the high prices for some morphs of ball pythons may have been unprecedented, like any other expensive animal that can be captive bred, the prices were bound to come down. "Supply and demand" has been mentioned in this forum quite a few times. There are too many expensive morphs of ball pythons to expect everyday people to be forking out thousands of dollars for. In addition, new morphs continually pop up in other commonly bred reptiles. There's only so much money to go around.

No one should be surprised as to what has happened in the ball python market. What they should be surprised about is how they got suckered into buying animals that they really cannot afford.

Tim

Third Eye

You are 100% right saying that most reptile people are not business people.

And this quote below is right on......I just didn't want to say it. lol

"No one should be surprised as to what has happened in the ball python market. What they should be surprised about is how they got suckered into buying animals that they really cannot afford."

But I still think they might have made more of their money back if they might have tried acting like a business instead of spending every dollar on remodeling their kitchens and buying more $10000 snakes.

Before you go slamming other people for the typo's the make you need to look in your own posts.

Quote: , you might actually have to operate like real a business at some point.

I am not one to bash anyones posts but I hate when someone else bashes posts and the posts they make are full of typo's.

I understand what you are saying about the MARKET, but you are not totally correct on WHY the market is crap. Some of you reasons are correct, but in my opinion the reason the price is dropping is because you have people getting a morph for 1,000s of dollars cheaper than going interenet price, Because of the behind the door deals, So then joe blow only has lets say 2500.00 in a Pinstripe male that should have been 7,000, so he decides to breed it to 5 females and when he does he gets just say 10 baby pinstripes, that is like 2 per female, well he only has 2500.00 in 11 pinstripes, So he says hell, I can sell mine for 1500.00 each and still make a profit. So now the price for pinstripes is 4000.00 but he posts his for 1500.00 to get quick cash, then the following year, Joe blow #2 that got a pinstripe for 1500.00 does the same thing except he says I only have 1500.00 and a little time in 10 pinstripes so guess what, he sales his for 750.00 because, he will make 7500.00 on a 1500 dollar investment on QUICK sale. Most people here in the ball python world are motivated by MONEY, well QUICK MONEY, You would think they would want to get the highest price, But they don't they sell CHEAP just to get cash and now you have people that have been watching the MARKET and see all the DROPS in PRICES do you think they want to just break even on deals, NOPE they don't so they will NOT invest unless you can sell them that thay will make money. My mojaves cost me 7500 each, and look at them now 2500 if your lucky. I should come out of the hole on them, But guess what I don't care if I make a penny on them because my goal is to produce a Blue Eyed Lucy, So I could care less if I sell any of them. That is the way I look at most of my projects. Yea we all gotta make a livin but we don't have to sell out cheap, that is what is killing the market, I believe it will start to level out. Most of the morphs started out way to high anyway. The 2,000 - 5,000 range is where people can get them if they want. I could go on and on but I will stop here. Thanks for looking David

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WRONG... The only time I was WRONG is when I thought I was WRONG but I was really RIGHT.....LOL...LOL...LOL

I know some of the "big names" love to blame the market on those deals "behind closed doors" and they have followers who will buy into anything they say, but the reality is this.... Those deals only started going on because the market was already going downhill. If new people were actually getting involved and breeders were acting like professionals in the first place, there might not have been a need for anyone to sell snakes at those kinds of prices.

By the way, you completely missed the point about typos. You should be able to see the difference between typing a word out of place on a forum and people who are just too uneducated and/or unprofessional to spell correctly or to use words in the proper context (for example "there, they're or their". This is a forum, not the classifieds. I'm not trying to sell you a snake for thousands of dollars. If that were the case, I probably would have taken five minutes to proof read it.

Dude thats so stupid what you said. You act like supply and demand have nothing to do with the market. Whats funny is you believe that the prices could have stayed higher if people wouldn't have sold cheap as you put it. To funny. I love people who live in a fantasy. Take care and good luck. Andrew

As a simple hobbyist, and not a breeder or someone trying to make money, I say good riddance! I love ball pythons and have a normal, and I think all the morphs are great. To be honest though, I don't forsee myself buying one any time soon, until they are affordable. For 10 or 20 thousand dollars, I'll buy myself a new car and look at some pictures of ball python morphs on the internet. I just don't understand why they are so expensive, when they don't really seem all too rare to me. Everyone and their brother is breeding ball morphs now. Maybe when the difference in price in normal and morph ball pythons is on par with, say, normal corns and corn morphs, then I'll buy one. But not until then. So all you breeders have fun selling $15k snakes back and forth to each other.

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1.0 Spotted Python
1.0 IJ Carpet Python and 0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Macklot's Python
1.0 Variable Kingsnake

Maybe I'm older than you? But this goes on everywhere in life and not just with snakes. Coins, Stocks, sports cards, remember beanies and bammers.

There will always be swings in this types of jump in and get rich markets. But breeding an animal almost always means its value will drop as more will be produced over the market need. Because, if anyone is making big bucks you will have 1000 more wanting to try to join in.

Again, this is nothing new. I may be new to the ball market, but there will be more markets of animals, gizmos and trinkets for people to think they will get rich.

I fell bad for people loosing a lot of money. But people also need to learn. And I know people that do this in life over and over and over. You can only do so much.

I wish all the people in the market well and hope they are not to caught up in it, but I know there has to be some.

Maybe in a sense it's a lot like a gambler? They just think one more shot at it and they can hit it big.

Sorry for any typos, and peace to all, no matter which way you spell it.

The reason for the crash is simple: Too many people breeding Spider males, Cinn males, Mojave males....to 10 normal females each, and becoming a Spider, Cinn or Mojave factory. They produced way more than they could sell. IF, IF they had bred their Cinns to Pastels, their Spiders to Ghosts, their Mojaves to Fires, there would have been more crosses, and less of a factory production of the Co Doms. Bottom line, some big breeders will hold onto the morphs that they cannot sell in a given year for the going price, it only takes one person who mass produces a certain morph to ruin it for everyone else and dump their animals. I for one have spent my last dollar on Balls, and will get what I want in trade, or go without. Those buying the mass produced low price morphs that are all happy now, lets see how happy they are with their new purchase in a year when the dump starts at $300 each.

I think it is simple to figure out. You paid to much for the snake 4 years ago. The market is simply buyers and sellers, period.

"there" market should be "their" market. Even the ones who proclaim themselves are bright have a few dark rooms in their house...

National Geographic my butt. This market was a niave craze that backfired on everybody. Greed will do it every time.

If you like breeding and keeping snakes you'll be fine. If you are in this for the money try doing something else. I hear 7-11 franchises do a lot better.

You spelled 'naive' wrong.

Naive is 'Evian' spelled backwards.

As in 'people are naive to pay the price for Evian water'.

All jokes aside, I'm sure it was a typo on your part.

Happy Herping!

BB
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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

Do you think all the big boys followed someones lead and produced the saame morph over and over?
Some of thes folks shelled out many thousands of dollars on unproven snakes . Produce something different guys........
Double hets Tripples ? Theres a market out there . The big boys are holding there product and waiting ....All markets fluctuate and everyone that sold at rock bottom prices are going to be kicking themselves when the market rolls. Kind of like buying stocks high and selling low.........Hang on to your morphs for a year or two and get twice the price. No Brainer!!!!!!!