Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Over the years, the tortoise trade has encountered quite a few "high end" tortoises that either never or seldom make it to the pet trade. Here is a list of species I have encountered over the years that fetch massive amounts of money, and have reached critical numbers in wild populations.

Ranked in order of rarity on the market:
The "Never seen" List:
1) Plowshare Tortoise (Geochelone Yniphora)
2) Any south african cape tortoise (Cape Speckled, Parrot Beak, etc)
3) Psammobates geometricus (Geometric Tortoise)
4) Psammobates oculiferus (Serrated Tortoise)
5) Psammobates tentorius (Tent Tortoise)

The "Sometimes seen" List:
6) Bowsprit Tortoise
7) Chaco Tortoise
8) Galapagos Tortoise
9) Burmese Star Tortoise (almost no adults available)
(Big gap here)
10) Radiated Tortoise (getting more and more common, females are rare).

Feel free to post to make corrections or add to this list.

Why do almost all your post discuss money, cost, value, etc. Just enjoy your tortoises. Just my opinion Tom

NP
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Michael
http://turtletracker.com

Part of the enjoyment of tortoise ownership is to discuss the rarity and value of a species. If you don't care about rarity, just buy sulcatas. I believe that I am providing valuable information for people that are just getting into high end tortoises by letting them know the availability of certain species. Several species like the plowshare tortoise are often mentioned, but unless you are familiar with the trade, will know that they are impossible to come by.

HTH

Rarity is fine. Beauty is fine. Your posts mention "huge sums of money". This is to discuss care and such about tortoises. Rarity is fine to discuss. Why mention money. I hapen to think a sulcata is beautiful in its shear size and power and massive limbs and a radiated is beautiful for its shell pattern. No arguement if you want to discuss which is more rare or near extinction. Tom

For the sake of accuracy the quote should read "massive amounts of money". I stand corrected.

Hey folks- let's not turn this forum into a Craigslist-type of bashing area, ok? The original poster had a point to make, made it well & was intended to be informative. Let's not jump all over our contributing community- it may be that this member will have some information that you will find particularly valuable in the future. This has proved to be a great resource, especially for those who have "newbie" questions.

This list is next to pointless.

Anyone in the USA who has done their homework already knows this. One exception: I have seen a couple of parrot beak tortoises for sale. Dan Wolfe sold his a while back.

Now what exactly is your point? I'm mystified!

Ask the average poster on this forum anything about tortoises, and their knowledge will unlikely extend past the common sulcatas, leopards, and the occasional redfoot tortoise (considered high-end for most people).

Only the upper crust of the tortoise industry really has any working knowledge of a species' rarity, let alone their rank according availability on the market. This list is meant to serve as an eye-opener to the people on the forums that have no real knowledge outside the more common species available.

Just because this information might seem trivial or pointless to you, know that it is in all likelihood not so to the public. In fact, I'm working on another list for all of the top insiders and experts of high-end tortoises. If you consider yourself one, maybe we should talk. This list will be used for a publication I am writing and planning on publishing about rare tortoises.

Purchasing a mercedes does not make one an auto mechanic or auto expert. Buying a bunch of burmese does not............

Owning a tortoise(s) for 6 months does not make one an expert.

I'm all for education and wish you well on that project.

However I would hardly consider a list "education". Tortoise education should go beyond the trivial listing of tortoises by their current market value. I don't know where you are located but you have left off several other torts kept in the USA or are native there.

It doesn't take much research to come to the conclusion that sulcatas are the most availabe (ie cheap) tortoise available. The redfoot is not far behind nor the leopard. All those tortoises may or may not be appropriate first tortoises for a newbie. Maybe they should try one of the various "greek" tortoises your list doesn't even mention.

What kind of publication do you plan? "Rare" tortoises definetely interest me. I would hardly consider myself knowledgable about tortoises as I've only been raising them for about 10 years - a mere eyeblink in tortoise time!
There are many others on this list with MUCH more knowledge & experiance.

Did I read that correctly? You've been raising tortoises for 10 years, and you do not consider yourself an expert? You must be a) very modest or b) slow at learning, or c) delusional. Also, 10 years is not a "mere blink" in "tortoise time." Most tortoise species other than the Galapagos average about 60-70 years.

If you read the title of the thread, it says "high end tortoises." I am providing education on high end tortoise rarity on the market. Nothing I have mentioned in my posts has digressed from this original intent. Thus, I really have no interest in what the poster mentioning Greek tortoises and Red Foots has to say about "education," because the title of my thread has been quite clear. Owning a Mercedes does not make you an expert automechanic, but knowing the car industry and exactly which models are rare and how the entire operation works definitely makes you an expert.

After a few initial mistakes, I now know and practice the best available methods of controlling humidity, preparing the best diets, housing, and finding the best supplements on the market, etc etc. I have moved quickly from newbie to expert in a matter of months as a result of my active pursuits. I correspond regularly to an insider in Thai tortoise markets as well as top breeders from California, and am always eager to establish new connections with top people.

Yes, I've been keeping tortoises for about 8 months, but I consider myself to be more knowledgeable than some owners that have been raising tortoises for 20 years. Why? Over the duration of my Burmese Star ownership, I have been actively and extremely aggressively seeking information from the top professionals in the field. After attending the New York Turtle and Tortoise Competition, I noticed that most people attending the show did not even know that the Burmese Star tortoise existed before then, even with a 40-year experience record of raising tortoises under the belts. Pathetic.

Age does not signify knowledge, and I am a perfect example of this. My Burmese Stars are doing wonderfully, and my collection of 12 animals from the best stock available will be among the largest of its kind in the country in a few years.

This industry is extremely undervalued. The vast majority of the turtle and tortoise community knows very little about what they're dealing with, surprisingly. Education beyond the common species is important for people that are very serious about this trade.

I hope this helps.

Trolling are we? or maybe not.

Ok, I can see where 'high end' can be found offensive... can you? That's a point that you seem to be missing.

Ed

>>Did I read that correctly? You've been raising tortoises for 10 years, and you do not consider yourself an expert? You must be a) very modest or b) slow at learning, or c) delusional. Also, 10 years is not a "mere blink" in "tortoise time." Most tortoise species other than the Galapagos average about 60-70 years.
>>
>>If you read the title of the thread, it says "high end tortoises." I am providing education on high end tortoise rarity on the market. Nothing I have mentioned in my posts has digressed from this original intent. Thus, I really have no interest in what the poster mentioning Greek tortoises and Red Foots has to say about "education," because the title of my thread has been quite clear. Owning a Mercedes does not make you an expert automechanic, but knowing the car industry and exactly which models are rare and how the entire operation works definitely makes you an expert.
>>
>>After a few initial mistakes, I now know and practice the best available methods of controlling humidity, preparing the best diets, housing, and finding the best supplements on the market, etc etc. I have moved quickly from newbie to expert in a matter of months as a result of my active pursuits. I correspond regularly to an insider in Thai tortoise markets as well as top breeders from California, and am always eager to establish new connections with top people.
>>
>>Yes, I've been keeping tortoises for about 8 months, but I consider myself to be more knowledgeable than some owners that have been raising tortoises for 20 years. Why? Over the duration of my Burmese Star ownership, I have been actively and extremely aggressively seeking information from the top professionals in the field. After attending the New York Turtle and Tortoise Competition, I noticed that most people attending the show did not even know that the Burmese Star tortoise existed before then, even with a 40-year experience record of raising tortoises under the belts. Pathetic.
>>
>>Age does not signify knowledge, and I am a perfect example of this. My Burmese Stars are doing wonderfully, and my collection of 12 animals from the best stock available will be among the largest of its kind in the country in a few years.
>>
>>This industry is extremely undervalued. The vast majority of the turtle and tortoise community knows very little about what they're dealing with, surprisingly. Education beyond the common species is important for people that are very serious about this trade.
>>
>>I hope this helps.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>Did I read that correctly? You've been raising tortoises for 10 years, and you do not consider yourself an expert? You must be a) very modest or b) slow at learning, or c) delusional.

Well, 14 years here and I'm still not an 'expert'. Experienced, yes (having hatched many hundreds of tortoises) from 5 different species (not hundreds of each species of course). But, I still have a lot to learn based on 'new' things I observe or experience keeping chelonids.

> Also, 10 years is not a "mere blink" in "tortoise time." Most tortoise species other than the Galapagos average about 60-70 years.

That statement is not accurate (in my opinion). There are FEW accurate age records for any tortoise species. Age in captivity does not constitute actual longevity for a species. My opinion? I expect the vast majority to likely live in excess of 100 years IF the conditions are 'just right' in the wild.

>After attending the New York Turtle and Tortoise Competition, I noticed that most people attending the show did not even know that the Burmese Star tortoise existed before then, even with a 40-year experience record of raising tortoises under the belts. Pathetic.

Most people (reptile keepers) are NOT tortoise keepers and therefore lack the interest to even want that info or knowledge. 40 years? There were that many people with 40 years tortoise experience that did not know that? Seems like an impossible statement to me.

I agree with EJ. I bit your hook. Got me again.

>>Age does not signify knowledge, and I am a perfect example of this. My Burmese Stars are doing wonderfully, and my collection of 12 animals from the best stock available will be among the largest of its kind in the country in a few years.

It takes more than a few years to raise stars to maturity. In a decade you might be getting a bit closer and actually determine the sex... till then, just try and enjoy them and (in my opinon again), be humble. It will benefit you a bit more with this 'community' than trying to make statements that some view as inflammatory or trolling. But, it's a free country and forum.

Matt

Eight months experiance and you are an expert? Amazing.

If you still consider yourself an expert in a decade, maybe you stopped observing & learning before you even started.

do you realize how condescending this post sounds.

I think I was going to answer this post but deleted it for various reasons... no... for the fear of being accused of 'starting trouble'... nuther story.

Needless to say you really need to think of your post (as I do) before you hit the 'send' key.

>>Ask the average poster on this forum anything about tortoises, and their knowledge will unlikely extend past the common sulcatas, leopards, and the occasional redfoot tortoise (considered high-end for most people).
>>
>>Only the upper crust of the tortoise industry really has any working knowledge of a species' rarity, let alone their rank according availability on the market. This list is meant to serve as an eye-opener to the people on the forums that have no real knowledge outside the more common species available.
>>
>>Just because this information might seem trivial or pointless to you, know that it is in all likelihood not so to the public. In fact, I'm working on another list for all of the top insiders and experts of high-end tortoises. If you consider yourself one, maybe we should talk. This list will be used for a publication I am writing and planning on publishing about rare tortoises.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Wow, you sound like a Hollywood producer! Or Donald Trump Jr.
Many of the statements you make are both inflammatory and pompous.

You have gone from being a newbie to an expert in 8 months? Amazing! I have been breeding tortoises (well, OK...only three species but I have hatched TONS of them) for nearly 30 years and have been keeping them for over 35 years. But I wouldn't embarrass myself by saying I am an expert. I find that I am learning each year. I will say that my tortoises are experts however.

But to be honest, saying you are an expert at keeping Burmese star tortoises after only 8 months is rather a stretch isn't it?
I mean, aren't you the person with that ridiculous 'aquatic setup'? I think it would be more accurate to state that you haven't managed to kill any yet after 8 months.

Finally, the terms that you like to toss around like 'upper crust', and 'insiders' is an insult to the genuinely dedicated breeders I have met over the years. NONE of these fine people would ever refer to themselves as that.
As a matter fact, I am sure that most long term breeders get just as much satisfaction from hatching a box turtle as they do a 'HIGH END' tortoise.
BTW...what on earth do you mean by 'the industry'?

>>
>>Wow, you sound like a Hollywood producer! Or Donald Trump Jr.
>>Many of the statements you make are both inflammatory and pompous.
>>
>>You have gone from being a newbie to an expert in 8 months? Amazing! I have been breeding tortoises (well, OK...only three species but I have hatched TONS of them) for nearly 30 years and have been keeping them for over 35 years. But I wouldn't embarrass myself by saying I am an expert. I find that I am learning each year. I will say that my tortoises are experts however.
>>
>>But to be honest, saying you are an expert at keeping Burmese star tortoises after only 8 months is rather a stretch isn't it?
>>I mean, aren't you the person with that ridiculous 'aquatic setup'? I think it would be more accurate to state that you haven't managed to kill any yet after 8 months.
>>
>>Finally, the terms that you like to toss around like 'upper crust', and 'insiders' is an insult to the genuinely dedicated breeders I have met over the years. NONE of these fine people would ever refer to themselves as that.
>>As a matter fact, I am sure that most long term breeders get just as much satisfaction from hatching a box turtle as they do a 'HIGH END' tortoise.
>>BTW...what on earth do you mean by 'the industry'?
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I R-E-A-L-L-Y like this "EXPERTS" moxie!! Wades in here with
eight(?) months senority & attempts to usurp over at least
TWO HUNDRED YEARS of combined "REAL" chelonia experience!! Tip-
O-The-Hatlo!! I'm gonna start plugg'n my knowledge on as many
"FORUMS" as I can!! Wow, what a thought?

Thank you, Mayday! You are what tortoise keeping is all about (good sense, humility, respect for the animal, and a willingness to learn no matter how much experience you have) - not someone who takes a bit of knowledge (that humidity is one factor in helping to prevent pyramiding) and takes it to ridiculous and dangerouse ends (keeping torts in a semi-aquatic environment). I thought I'd seen that name somewhere before. This is exactly what comes of considering yourself an expert after keeping torts for only 8 months.

Nina

Thank you for expressing the sentiments of so very many of the readers of this fellow's pompous tripe so eloquently and tacitly.

Bill Z