Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay, first of all, let me say I'm not for OR against this idea, but just wondering what everybody thinks.
Bill Kirby (an awesome guy-congrats on the litter, Bill!) just produced a litter below that made me want to ask about this idea. He said that he had produced a litter by breeding a male hypo to a female suri a while back. The babies at that point would be 50% suri. Now say you took one of those hypo babies and bred it to a pure suri I guess the babies would then be 75% suri?
Okay, so you take one of THOSE hypo babies and breed it to ANOTHER pure suri. Keep doing this for generations and you could keep the hypo gene but breed the suri influence back into them. Eventually, you have babies that would be pretty much indistinguishable from pure suris, but many of them would be hypos (the only give away).
You could do this with Hoggs or ANYTHING really, but with all the sunset crosses out there, step 1 is already done.
Really, this is pretty much we did with Panamanian hypos into the Colombian lines. Now, though a lot of us know that it’s not completely accurate, no one bats an eye when you advertise “Hypo Colombians.”
Please remember that I said I haven't taken a side on this one yet, but just wanted to see what everyone thought. I'm not trying to stir anything up, so everyone please be nice when you answer.

I think 95% of all boas being bred in captivity are some sort of cross! I know, I know, you have some people who actually went and caught their animals and they have a specific local. But, come-on! I don't think boas know bounderies. I don't think their visa distinguishes their nationality...
Keep snakes for the love of keeping them. Bred what you want and disclose what you cross to get them. When they are sold let the market decied if they like it...
Enjoy

I appreciate the thoughts and I really liked the idea of “disclose what you cross to get them” for sure!
There we go: one brave soul!
What does everyone else think?
I think we can do this without flaming each other…

"this is pretty much what we did WITH Panamanian hypos..."

I think it would be cool. A fun project. I bet there would be a lot of folks that would like those babies! Myself included. I understand both sides, but I'm an "I'm o.k., you're o.k." kind of guy.
Some folks like to keep them pure, even if "purity" regarding mainland forms of Boa Constrictor is nebulous at best.
Some folks like to play, and mix different things, even if it means potentially losing traits that distinguish certain locals.
Can't both ideas/practices be accepted?
Then we have it all!

I hope I didn't write any fightin' words..

jason
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sounddjinn@yahoo.com

Things always get cloudy, just before transformation.

I agree with Ghackney, that the majority of the animals in captivity are a form of intergrade/cross etc etc one way or another. The difficulty with the keeping of such a broadly similar base of animals is the majority of people breeding didn't collect them, didn't buy them first hand, and many didn't even ask what the specifics about them were when purchased. I definetely think anything done with intergrades and crosses should be divulged so potential buyers know what they are getting when they get it.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

Thanks, guys!
Great thoughts!
No, no need for "fightin" words!" I like the tone of this conversation! I think we can have a discussion instead of a fight!

I am not here to judge you so lets get that out of the way. My favorite case in point is the Salmontines. They are muts but beautiful mutts. Here's what I think. How 'suri' they would look would depend on your eye. The suri traits are many. If you had a great eye and you could truely select the babies over time, that had the most suri traits in a number of generations you might get a hypo animal indistinguishable from a suri to most folks anyway (I am picky, I know I am).

The other thing that occurs to me is that maybe you'd do better making anery suris, than hypos (yada yada I know it's a recessive gene and would take longer etc) here's why. I have never seen an anerythristic suri (except the one I made in photoshop, it was great looking too), but I think I have seen a few hypomelanistic suris. Christian Clodfelter of Redwood Reptiles just bought one and Koky sold one last year too. I don't know if you'd want to go to the extreme effort to produce a hypo "suri", when likely there will be real hypo suris showing up in a little bit? Yours would then still be oh some percentage colombian and likely a different hypo strain too. The one Christian has is definitely hypomelanistic, but it remains to be proved genetics (it's a WC and about a year old). Very reduced black. But it doesn't appear to be the same strain of hypo. You can tell this by the upper tail region where there are still the black rings around the saddles.

You should also check out John Lokken's animals he produced hypoXsuri and aneryXsuri hets animals this year I believe.

Caden

Thanks, Caden. No way, don't worry. I'm not offended at all. I'm not planning to do this project as of right now anyway, but if I were, I’m still just looking for discussion and always open to other opinions. Right now, I've got too many other projects on my plate and, like I said, I'm not really sure what I think at all. It’s just and idea that I’m sure someone else has had and wouldn’t even really be that hard. I’m just wondering why no one has done it yet.
I used to be what you might consider a "purist" and am now what djinn called an "I'm okay, you're okay" guy. One thing I wonder though is that with suri and guyana imports being SO common and coming into the country in such great numbers (I live in Florida) why there aren't a lot of morphs for them as well. I didn't ask that question because it's already been asked several times. The explanation that most BCC people are purists doesn't seem like a bad explanation, but even so, doesn't it seem like there should be a lot of morphs imported WITHIN that population?
Look at nics! Look at all the naturally occurring mutations you can have without even leaving that locality! Maybe there's something in the mainland that limits mutations, but that doesn't seem right.
To your other point-you said there were already some naturally occurring hypo suris?
Can you point me to some pics?
That would be cool to see!
Thanks again, everybody for being so civil. I now this topic evokes a lot of strong emotions. I’m glad we can listen to each other on this one.
Aaron

Aaron and everyone here's the pics of Christian's suri:
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1103447,1103447

Now it depends on how you define hypo. If you consider that to mean reduced black, I think this girl qualifies. She does have some black around the saddles at the top of the tail, but here the thing. Maybe there are many kinds of hypo strains like albino and anery strains. Maybe this is the type 2 hypo from suriname. We really cannot say until babies are produced, but if this is genetic, and she produces babies with the black reduction like hers I really don't see how anyone could refuse to call this a hypomelanistic suri. It's even possible it's recessive and she will produce no boas like her but of course they will be seen in the next generation when/if her offspring makes that look. She by the way is much more than reduced black she displays increased red like all the really beautiful hypo bcis.

Also there have been rumors for a long time about WC albino suris in fact. It would be great if someone would just say yea or nay on that one for once and for all. But regardless they may show up too. The only think I haven't heard anything about is anerythristic suris.

Caden

Thanks, Caden.
I could see that. It's a beautiful suri for sure. Hopefully, Christian will prove out the genetics involved.
I think there IS an albino 100% suri. I thought the Barkers had it, but no one's been able to breed it.
Anyone want to confirm this?

I have never seen a true anery suri. All the babies from my litter are het anery. Some are hypo het anery. I can't wait to see what the coloration of an 50% anery suri will be.
I was in love with Mike's 75% Salmontines.........I can't wait to make 50% Ghosts!
The hypos that are coming from Surinam breeding (as far as I have seen) are amazing. I am holding back 2.2 of the 50/50 hypo het anerys. This project was really just for me alone. Of course I would like to sell some babies.....But, This breeding was really for me. I LOVE HUGE BOAS!!! To have some of these morphs with size and the surinam color just makes it that much better for me.
I made the mistake a few years ago and didn't follow my heart by breeding my hypo with my argentine. The next year I saw the babies Mike produced. They were amazing. I swore to myself I wouldn't make that mistake again.
Take care,
John

Here are a couple of pics.

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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Thanks, John!!!!
Awesome animals!
Thank you so much for the response and pics!
So what next?
What will you be breeding together and for what hoped-for purpose?
Hypo 50% suri het anery x hypo 50% suri het anery shooting for some superghost 50% suris?
Will you breed any back to pure suris?
Will you do another ghost/anery x suri for some "unrelated" blood?
Speak, my man, you're 2 steps ahead of my simple ponderings!

>>Awesome animals!
Thank you. I'm glad you like the look. Bill kept on telling me how good they look in person...........Now I get to experience it.

>>Hypo 50% suri het anery x hypo 50% suri het anery shooting for some superghost 50% suris?
That's exactly what I'm hoping for!

>>Will you breed any back to pure suris?
Yes. I have a pair that I might do it with. We'll see what direction I want to go with this project. My hope is to have a Surinam snow. I can't even imagine what a 10-12ft snow would look like. It sounds awesome though!

>>Will you do another ghost/anery x suri for some "unrelated" blood?
Possibly.........Again we'll see. I try an keep my collection "small". It gives me more time to be with my animals. They are pets more than breeders. Breeding pays for the heating, caging, and food bills. Plus, I FINALLY get to keep the keepers!!! I have waited a long time for that.
Take care,
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Cool! You're doing it, too.
So it's not such a crazy idea! A suri snow WOULD be cool. I think it would be neat because a lot of what I like about the suris is more than just the tail. I really like the widow's peaks and the actual pattern. I think that would look killer with some of the morphs. For instance, that's what I think would be the coolest part of a pure suri albino: the pick saddles on the white background. I have a little normal albino that has really thin saddles and little widow's peaks as well. I love her look. They're all evenly spaced and everything. Only one of them is broken. It's evenly spaced and even has a nice widow's peak, but only half the saddle is there. The half that's there is great though. At first, I suspected some sort of suri influence (also because she used to regurge), but checked with the guy I got her from who checked with the breeder: nope, just a colombian albino.

Mike's 75% salmontine is 75% what?
Argentine?
So he bred and argentine to a hypo, came up with a hypo 50% argentine and then bred that animal to an argentine or to another salmon?

Correct. 75% argentine. I think he bred a 50% Salmontine back to the mother. This made the babies 75%ers.
I am still in love with those guys. Someday I'll own one.
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Thanks, John. So that's pretty much what I was talking about. He could keep going and have Argentines that look a lot more "Argentine" than the crosses we've seen before but are also hypo. I figured somebody had done it!

Pic number three is SMOKIN' too. I just love that you do what is in your heart.

Caden

It really makes the litters that much better! I loved my last years litter of pastels het anery.
These two litters I had were just awesome!! I am so happy with the results.
Take care,
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

I don't see any great need for hypo Suri lookalikes in the first place.

This sounds like a 30 to 100 year project. What happens to the unwanted babies produced? I'm strongly opposed to putting them into the market. The best alternative is to kill them, which is no fun at all for most people. What happens to the project's value if a hypo Suri gets caught in the wild?

So my take is that the project would be a longterm effort with definite downsides and little economic or scientific gain. Thumbs down.

Paul Hollander

Good to see you weighing in on this one!
Many good points.
No, killing them is no way to go at all!
You and Caden also had a really good point about the WC hypo suri. I just go back to the question: As long as we've been importing AND breeding them, why hasn't anyone established the gene?

I don't think it would take 10 generations to get a quasi-suri that was hypo, but maybe like me, you are picky picky and to me it might still look like a mutt. It really might take many many years before it truely looks like a suri to me personally. On top of that I agree what about all those mutt babies. There are LOTS of boas in rescues all the time (mostly colombians & mutts here in the Redwoods), and I would hate to add to that problem. But, I could never kill babies, no no, never not me. That is NOT an option to me. I'd have to give them away and hope to God they were well taken care of. I am not saying I am even planning on doing this.

I am not a purist exactly. I am not opposed to making beautiful morph suris, especially if that's the only way to get them. But, I would never cross a BCC and a BCI unless there was a good reason. I used to be a purist and have just BCCs, and before that I had boas 'who knew' what they were (in the 80s). One was a blue boa. Not blueish, but sky blue. I know for a fact that we haven't discovered all the morphs yet by a long shot.

I even used to be opposed to WC individuals too, but that is where the new morphs possibly suri morphs are going to come from.

So much for being a purist! : )
Caden

I tryed for striped hypos suris last season but the female re-absorbed..

As long as folks use common sence and are straight up about whats what why not make it if you want to. I am planning several morph crosses with hypo jungle X suri and also have been thinking about arabesque X hog. Can you imagine an arabesque with the colors of a hog?

One of the things I think will be a HUGE benifit to this is the strenght of these crosses. Hybrid vigor.. All of the morphs have been imbred to some extent and all of the babies are treated with kid gloves.. There is no natural selection in the captive bred boa world to weed out weak gened animals. That one weak one that would have died straight off is nursed along by us. I think these crosses are going to be the strongest, most disease, and illness resistant boas around, not to mention they will all look great!
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

Thanks, Ed!
I THOUGHT you had hinted at doing something like that.
You know what though?
I think some HAS bred an arabesque to a hog. Didn't someone post pics earlier?
I think that's another good point about hybrid vigor.
Great discussion everybody!
I have to thank everyone again for being so respectful of each others' viewpoints!
Oh, and we’ve gotten a bunch of new stuff since we last posted pics. We’re planning to try to get some this weekend!
Aaron
...but for good measure, here's one I know you've seen before. One of my favorite pics of our little anery...

I personally see the arguement both ways. I love locality specific animals, my growing gtp collection proves that. But I also think in order to get good breeding combinations you need to mix things up occasionally. with boa morphs, I think the BCC influence is sadly lacking in most. I don't know if the larger size keeps breeders from working with them or what the issue is, but I absolutely hated boa morphs until I cam across a pastel that is definately atleast 50% peruvian or suri. Compared to my pair of peruvians (ones that I am 100% certain are peruvian), I'm leaning to that influence. Because of this, either next season or the one after I will be breeding her to my male peruvian...should make for some awesome babies. But like you said, why stop with suris? I'd just love to see a boom in high bcc influence boa morphs!

Chris

Thanks, Chris.
It almost seems like a lot more people are starting to think that way as well.