Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why arnt grey bands talked about in here?

http://forums.kingsnake.com/forum.php?catid=72
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

Because there is already a subforum specifically for them, but don't let that stop you. Post a ? someone here may give you an answer.

I know that you are aware of the Alterna Forum, so i am assuming your asking why alternas have been separated from other kingsnakes... i really have no answer for you on that one but, I will talk alterna all day long regardless of the forum.. So far this season I have 30 Locality GBK eggs in the cooker and more on the way..

~ Mike Russo

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

In my continous quest for knowledge i have discovered that both Stebbins and Applegate call the Graybanded kingsnake a type of mexicana. What is your opinion? yea or nay?

I would agree with them... After all who am I to disagree with Stebbins and Mr. Applegate??

Over the years I have read just about every piece of info there is on Gray Bands and I have many heard different opinions on this topic.

The Merker's explain this topic in their new book, Alterna, The Gray Banded Kingsnake. (Not trying to sell a book but it is very well worth the price, even if your slightly interested in Alterna)... Anyway, they relate Alterna to the mexicana group based on "ventral scale counts, head shape, iris color, and other morphological characters"

I never really thought too deeply about this topic but at the end of the day I have just always though of them as being closely related due to visual similarities..

~ Mike Russo

I've seen alterna that look very like this thayeri

yea, i have had some animals in the past that looked similar to yours...

The female in the pic below came to me in a trade deal and i had no history on her at all. She has since been sold, but the overwhelming opinion on the Alterna Forum and I agreed that it was most likely a mix breed... The opinion was based on her overall look, but mostly due to the greenish tone behind her head.

Either way it was a nice looking animal, but i sold it as a possible mix...

According to my Merker book your "mix" breed could pass for a Hudspeth County, pg.29 right pic, ofcourse that is'nt proof that it's not a mix.
I love the variable alterna and have spent hrs looking at Dan Johnson's excellent website, a very diverse Lampropeltis and can understand why some lump them in with the mexicana group.

Which edition for the Stebbins reference?
I'm looking at the 3rd edition and don't see that.

Somewhere I have his second edition. I'll see if I can find it.

Not being able to find it though is why I bought the 3rd

Peterson Field Guide, Western Reptiles and Amphibibians, 2nd ed. on pg. 190, Kingsnakes and Milk Snakes: Genus Lampropeltis.
Please let me know if the 3rd ed. has it and what page.

Third Edition has gray banded king on pg 369.
It is listed as designated L. alterna with no mention of mexicana.

In the forward, he mentioned that there had been some shuffling around of species due to taxonomical findings. I noticed some subspecies of alligator lizard are gone, etc. Looks like the alligator lizard changed genus name as well.

I'm gonna have to get the 3rd ed. or is there a 4th out.

Third is out.
I doubt there will be a fourth. He's pretty old now.

btw - I need to find my second, or get another.
Peterson did something funny with the third - the pages don't feel right, they feel slick (they are glossy, even the straight text). The binding is different, it is more difficult to hold it open to the page you want.

The information may be more up to date, but the publication quality of the 2nd edition is definitely better.

My oldest Stebbin's guide 3rd. from the right, 1st. ed. 1954 McGraw-Hill

Stebbins compiled research from other scientists in addition to doing his own. In his most recent edition of the Peterson Field Guide (3rd edtion), he does not refer to alterna as a subspecies of mexicana.

William Garstka, who wrote the last definitive paper on mexicana in 1982, seperated alterna from mexicana. Prior to that they were lampropeltis mexicana alterna. He gave them full species status based on three things. On thing was iris color. Alterna have siver-grey irises, while all other mexicana have brown or reddish irises. The other two things Garstka looked at were hemipenal characteristics and vertabrae shape. They are clearly very closely related to mexicana and Garstka didn't deny that. I believe that mitochondrial DNA testing has shown that alterna are derived from mexicana, though I may have that backwards.

Gartska also got rid of all subspecies of mexicana, saying that thayeri, greeri, and mex-mex were all just color phases of the same animal. Yes that's right, as far as the scientific community is concerned thayeri, greeri, and mex-mex don't exist!

The herpetoculture community never really accepted some of these findings, and many people still consider alterna to be a sub of mexicana (maybe like Mr. Applegate), and many don't accept that greeri, thayeri, and mex-mex aren't full blown sub-species. I have heard that new research is in the work that will give sub-species or possible full speices status back to greeri, thayeri, and mex-mex based on DNA research. 24 years is too long for a new paper not to come out on mexicana.

I think there will always be some differences of opinion between the hobbyist community and the scientific community.

Greg
American Society of Ichtyologists and Herpetologists

Thanks for the info Greg, and where do you stand on topic of alterna and mexicana being the same or completly diff. and do you think iris color validates separation?

I think alterna, and mexicana are really closely related. Are they the same species??? I think there needs to be some study of the Saltillo, Mexico area where the range of alterna and thayeri come really close to each other. Alterna are north of Saltillo below the Anticline of Arteaga in the Chihuahua Desert, and thayeri are south of Saltillo at higher elevations. They have been found within a few miles of each other. If they interbreed, which some think that they do, they would be natural hybrids if they are truly different species. If they are both subs of mexicana, they would be intergrades. I believe that Garstksa felt one of the specimens he examined could have been a cross.

When you think that giant South American milksnakes are supposedly the same species as tiny eastern milks, maybe we need to re-think things. Not that size should be the only factor.

I really hope DNA can start to straighten things out because I think mexicana and triangulum are really messed up when it comes to taxonomy.

Yeah, sometimes i think triangulum should be split in two.

> Stebbins compiled research from other scientists in addition to
> doing his own. In his most recent edition of the Peterson Field
> Guide (3rd edtion), he does not refer to alterna as a subspecies
> of mexicana.

I went to the same church as Dr. Stebbins during the 80s, and one if the things he said to me that I remember most when I asked him about species divisions -

He told me the species classification system is a man made system designed to meet our needs and our definitions.

Wether something should be a different species or different subspecies is of academic pursuit, but there will always be cases that are not clear cut and just have to be arbitrarily decided.

Those were not his exact words, I don't remember his exact words.

-=-

Another thing I remember - I caught a western pond turtle, and brought it to him. He identified it as a male, and showed me the clear indications of its masculinity. Three weeks later, my male western pond turtle laid eggs (and yes, they hatched).

Yeah, I agree with Stebbins completely there. Scientists (and us) want to put everything in neat little categories. Nature is chaos. We're trying to make order out of chaos and I don't know if we can ever succeed.

...here's a quote from a friend who posts on another site...
check it out. What a mess!

"The available sequence data indicates that temporalis is indeed an integrade between elapsoides and triangulum.

It also suggests that the eastern and central US milksnakes are actually closer to the common kingsnakes than they are to other milksnakes. While you are at it, you can throw in Stilosoma with this group.

The prairie kings are all by themselves.

Cemophora and Arizona are more closely related to each other than anything else, and more "kingsnake" than either Rhinocheilus or Pituophis.

And lastly, your "mexicana" don't really exist as a group, they are more closely related to the various mexican milksnakes."

?????
More fun!

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

reading that made me glad i'm not a taxonomist

Yeah, check out the taxonomy forum on KS.com to see some real crazy arguments. Taxonomy is a mess I'd like to avoid. There are lots of arguments between a guy called "CKing" that won't divulge his name and Troy Hibbits about alterna and mexicana. Makes the occasional argument on the kingsnake forum look very tame! Do a search for alterna on the taxonomy forum and check it out.

Thanks, last time i checked out that forum it looked dead-beat.

L.Roy Jetzen........

They have their own world but you see them occasionally on this site. I have been after them for two years and planning for three! A very abundant range but limited collecting points make them hard to acquire in the field, although there are tons of c.b. available. A very cool mexicana complex king!
Todd Hughes