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Anyone want to share any stories about BTS morphs that they've heard about?

rich_123 Aug 01, 2003 05:02 PM

One story I can tell is that New York Reptilia, Inc. had a leucistic, or perhaps an albino Northern, for sell at $10,000. It was labeled as leucistic on the site. They must have sold it since I don't see it there anymore. I saw the pic that was provided and it looked all white, maybe yellowish, and its eyes were blackish blue. Sounds like a leucistic, huh?

I'm quite sure everything I mentioned is accurate. I might be incorrect about the business that had it available, but I'm pretty sure about that. The discription of the skink was honest, though.

Replies (11)

rich_123 Aug 01, 2003 05:08 PM

Actually, I just did more research and the description was a bit off. The Northern BTS looks more like an albino to me. Here's a link:

http://www.newyorkreptilia.com/photos/breeders/5.html

rich_123 Aug 01, 2003 05:10 PM

Check it out, but I don't know what country this specimen is in.

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Farm/3473/cool.html

James Wilson Aug 02, 2003 12:11 AM

I am pretty sure that that skink is or was owned by John Weigle of the Australia Reptile Park.

While there are some Tiliqua species such as the Common (Tiliqua scincoides), and the Indonesian Blue-tongued Skinks (Tiliqua gigas) that display great variability in their color and pattern, there are still those morphs that cause even the most jaded hobbyists to stand back in awe. Most of these morphs are rarely if ever seen in U.S. collections, and command extremely high prices when they are made available. When in the market for these high-end Blue-tongued Skink morphs, it is a good idea to buy only from reputable dealers or breeders, and always ask for photos (you would be surprised at what some people consider to be a morph). It would also be smart to avoid hets, as there is really not any regular breeding of any of the proven recessive genetic mutations here in the U.S. at this time.

Albinism vs. Amelanism
True albinism is a recessive genetic mutation in which the affected animal has a total lack of all pigmentation on its entire body, including the eyes, causing the irises to be red or pink. Many people confuse albinism with amelanism, which is where the affected animal has a total lack of all melanin (dark pigment) and red or pink eyes. Most mammals, including humans, have only one pigment (melanin) present, and for them, there is no different between albinism and amelanism. However, most reptiles possess other pigments such as xanthin (yellow) and etherin (red) which still play a major role in the reptile's coloration, even when there is no melanin present, as is the case with amelanism. While turning up occasionally in Australia, I do not currently know of any albino Blue-tongued Skinks here in the U.S. However, I do know of a group of amelanistic Indonesian Blue-tongued Skinks (Tiliqua gigas) that were sold by an east coast reptile dealer, to a reclusive breeder in the San Francisco area, as recent as 3 years ago. He contacted me once, and I have not heard from him since. I suspect that the group was sold out of the country as I have not seen or heard of them either. There are two photos of blue-tongues, with interesting color mutations, that are published in some of the popular herpetological magazines and books in this country. Only one of them is a true albino. It is an Eastern Blue-tongue (Tiliqua scincoides scincoides), and it was taken by Karl Switack at the Australian Reptile Park in (you guessed it) Australia. The other photo is of a young Irian Jaya Blue-tongued Skink (Tiliqua ssp.) that was taken by Dick Bartlett. This skink is actually not albino. However, it is most probably amelanistic, but there are potential questions that could be raised in reference to its normal appearing eyes. Unfortunately this specimen died not long after it was photographed.

Melanism and Hypermelanism
Melanism refers to animals that are completely black or dark brown that would not display such coloration under normal circumstances. The term is often misused to describe animals that are merely darker than normal, but by no means solid black or dark brown. These darker animals are more correctly referred to as hypermelanistic. Melanistic Blue-tongued Skinks are non-existent in U.S. collections, and very rare in Australia, with only two reports of total melanism occurring in blue-tongues. The first was a newborn Eastern Blue-tongue (Tiliqua scincoides scincoides) from Sydney. The second is a Blotched Blue-tongue (Tiliqua nigrolutea) from Tasmania. While being extremely rare, it is no surprise that these two examples are both members of the two most southernly ranging Tiliqua species, whose range includes many highland regions and are therefore subjected to colder temperatures than the other members in their genus. There are populations of the Shingle-back Skink (Trachydosaurus rugosus), in the same area in New South Wales, that are almost entirely melanistic. Being melanistic, these skinks are able to absorb heat more efficiently when basking in a range where heat is hard to come by. It is possible that these two Melanistic blue-tongues could be a glimpse into the evolutionary future of the Tiliqua that inhabit these colder ranges.

Hypomelanism
This term refers to an animal that displays reduced amounts of melanin, possessing smaller amounts than would the norm for its particular species. It is a very broad term covering everything from animals with recessive genetic mutations such as leucism, albinism, and amelanism, to animals that are a little lighter than usual with no apparent genetics responsible. There are some Blue-tongued Skink specimens that fall somewhere in between, showing a definite reduction in melanin, and appearing to display some sort of genetic abnormality. These are the blue-tongues that come to mind when we hear the term "Hypo." Weather this is a co-dominant or recessive trait remains a mystery at this time. These Skinks are quite rare and very expensive. They are the only "morph" that is available here in the U.S. today (with the possible exception of albinos). Some of these Hypos are more than you would expect them to be, while others are sadly disappointing. Because of the broadness of this term, it is advised to always get a photo of the specimen before you send off your life savings.

Leucism
This trait is displayed in animals that have no pigmentation, appearing milky white with bluish black eyes. I have heard more than one report from people claiming to have Leucistic Blue-tongued Skinks, and to date, none have even come close to being an actual leucistic Blue-tongue. As far as I know, Leucism has not yet been witnessed in Blue-tongued Skinks.

Striped Blue-tongues
Could it actually be true? Apparently the answer is yes. There is a breeder in Ohio who had a striped Irian Jaya Blue-tongued Skink (Tiliqua ssp.) in his collection. It was a very light tan color with two thin brown stripes that run from the neck to the tip of the tail. As far as I know, it was the only one of its kind. It is also not known if it was a recessive or co-dominant trait, or if it was even genetically reproducible at all. I happen to think that it was genetically reproducible and most likely co-dominant, but that is purely speculation on my part. Unfortunately, it will remain a mystery, as the owner recently informed me that this animal died before its second year from unknown causes.

Fancy Names and Marketing Games
Some people like to classify every slightly different colored specimen into a "phase" or "race". This is okay if it is just left at that, but it always seems to snowball into some kind of insane game of marketing name one-up-man-ship. This has been going on for years now with the Bearded Dragon and now it has unfortunately reached the Blue-tongued Skink market. In the last few years I have seen Blue-tongued Skinks marketed as silver, yellow, cream, and multi-colored phases. Some of these descriptions have at least some basis, while others are simply obvious marketing ploys with no precedence. Now there are more recent terms such as pastel, citrus-hypo, and patternless-anerytheristic being coined by "breeders" who don't even seem to know the definitions of the terms they are using. These terms often contradict themselves, and are more often than not totally inaccurate. However, there are occasionally skinks from certain geographic locals that display a slight variation in color from the norm for that species, and will often breed true when bred with another specimen from the same local. With many of these skinks being from Australia, there is a problem with actually finding pure specimens that originate from any certain local as there has not really been any local specific breeding of the Australian blue-tongues in this country. There are currently efforts by breeders to gather some of these local-specific forms for breeding purposes. We have gathered over 100 Blue-tongued Skinks and have meticulously grouped them first according to species or subspecies, and second, according to color and form. There will not be any names given to any of these color forms, morphs, or phases until they are reproduced successfully. As with any other reptile purchase, I recommend viewing the actual skink, or at least a photo of the skink, so as to verify weather or not it lives up to its name or any other claims.

Edward Aug 02, 2003 03:36 AM

Pretty different, huh?
Image
-----
Edward
Carpe diem

Edward Aug 02, 2003 03:39 AM

>>Pretty different, huh?
Here's the link to the full-size picture.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=members.iinet.net.au/~bush/occip.jpg&imgrefurl=http://members.iinet.net.au/~bush/gecko.html&h=69&w=138&prev=/images?q=%22tiliqua+occipitalis%22&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

I hope the link works.
Image
-----
Edward
Carpe diem

rich_123 Aug 02, 2003 10:37 AM

I wonder if it could potentially be hybridized. I don't seriously think it is, though. I'm just kinda thinking out loud.

Edward Aug 02, 2003 04:12 PM

>>I wonder if it could potentially be hybridized. I don't seriously think it is, though. I'm just kinda thinking out loud.
-----
Edward
Carpe diem

johan Aug 02, 2003 10:30 AM

Here a pic I took "Down Under"
To me it looks like a hypermelanistic occipitalis.
What do you guys think?

Johan.

James Wilson Aug 02, 2003 11:06 AM

From what I see in the pic, that is exactly what it is. Very cool! I would love to see more pics if you have any. Also if you or any of the other Aussies out there (kiwisue, blotched Luke, ect) have any pics of BTS, they would be of great interest to me. I am looking for slide photos, regular prints, or good electronic images for my very slow to come out BTS book. We are formatting right now, and it is a timely process. Any photos of abnormalities or morphs are especially appreciated, as they seem to be a big draw for many people. I will tell you guys, it will get done, and it will be available in good time. Thank you all for your patience Let me know what you need from me on my end if you have anything. I am willing to send out my left arm for really good ones! I will also give you a little "shout out" and photo credit. Hey, Luke, you have a package that should be there within the next few days. Enjoy!

kiwisue Aug 02, 2003 06:46 PM

Hi James
I'm more than happy to send you the photos I have of my skink, although there's nothing unusual about her...she's just a Common Eastern (although I think she's *uncommonly* pretty...biased of course!) And she was only born this year so is still small. Trouble is, I dont know how to post pics on the forum - either someone can enlighten me (I have a friend with a scanner so can save them to disc and get instructions from there) or I can send the prints via good old snail mail if you like. I have other shots of t. scincoides in the wild (ie. the ones I've found in the backyard - coastal Sydney) but they are not of such good quality, as it's hard to get a good close up without frightening them away from their basking spots. But would be delighted to send you what I have if it will help in any way. I'm sure Luke feels the same. Let me know, anyway.
Susan
samlatch@ihug.com.au

blotch Aug 03, 2003 10:50 PM

James!

I have not forgotten the pictures bro! I have been out and about but due to the low temps they are all hibernating! however - I have met a local breeder who has easterns and blotchies out doors - so I plan to take some pics of his lot. Did you read my post on the $40 Blotched Adult male? if not - He is willing to sell me his 3-4yr old Male Blotchie that has fathered 9 babies in the past. He said 3-4 to be safe - he leans toward the 3yr mark. But I have not forgotten mate - It's all happening - just slowly! I'll keep you posted on my progress!

Luke ~|=|>

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