Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,
So here's the deal...I'm 20 years and a full-time student. Ever since I can remeber I have had an uncontrollable love of animals. Last year I bought first normal ball just to get a taste of the ball python. Needless to say I fell in love with him. So, for the past 5 or 6 months I have been doing MASSIVE research on the genetics of ball python breeding...simple reccesive, dominant, codom, etc. etc. and have been entirely intrigued by EVERYTHING. So here is my question....I have the money, the time, and equipment needed to start my first project BUT I want to hear what everyone has to say about this decision as an investment. I know that I would absolutely love undertaking my first project, but I also need to feel comfortable that I can make money back. Thanks in advance for any responses!

Ok so I just read my message and I don't think I got across what I wanted. My main conern is that if I invest the money and the time that when I post an animal that I produced, for sale, that I will have troubling selling as I am a newbie. You know what I mean? It seems to me like I'm getting in "too late in the game" if you know what I mean.

Well...
This is what I've picked up from reading this board daily.

Even newbies can make a turnaround selling snakes.
Think of it this way (as I am).
Let's say you invest $550 on a pastel male (like I did)
You breed it to even ONE normal female. Assuming she lays, let us say 4 eggs, statistically you should get two pastels.
Now, if you sell said pastels...you will make back at least what you invested, meaning next season is profit minus housing/feeding costs. (Remember, females sell for more as well)
OR you can save said pastels and breed them as well. (Supers are worth more than normal pastels...and can be used to make all kinds of cool combos)

Now most people with a codom will breed it to more than one female, so...your odds and turn around will be more.

As for having a hard time selling...
Sell something visual...like homozygous recessives or codoms.
The more you sell, especially nice animals, the better your reputation gets.
Example: You're going to get an easier reputation selling something visual then say...het pieds or het albinos. Sure, you can include paperwork saying saying they are hets...but paperwork doesn't mean all that much.

If you have the money, I say invest in a clown male and some het females and see if you can make some clowns. They're a visual morph that seems to be selling like hotcakes at this time, and will most likely continue to "fly off shelves" for a while.

Just my opinion.
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-Man fears the beast in the Wolf because he does not understand the beast within himself.

I agree with everything that guy said

Also, it's all about the customer service.
I've worked many retail jobs, and the one business tip I picked up on the most was this:

If a person has a good exipirience with you, he may tell 2-3 of his friends.
If he has a bad expirience, he'll tell 15.

Call backs, emails, faxes...whatever...
answer them fast and friendly.

I've been working with Tony Hurt at Snake Evolutions and he's been awesome. He's dealt with all my stupid questions with a smile and has been a great help. I will recommend him to people in the future.
Customer service is how you snag repeat customers. Repeat customers build reputation and pay the bills.
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-Man fears the beast in the Wolf because he does not understand the beast within himself.

ditto on Tony Hurt - great guy, great customer service!

Also, if you want to get Pastels, his NERD lemons are BEAUTIFUL!

Steve

Good to hear...I just paid mine off yesterday. haha.

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-Man fears the beast in the Wolf because he does not understand the beast within himself.

I bought my het albino from him! I used to ask Garrick DeMeyer at crestedgecko.com about my n00b questions lol.

I would invest in recessives. Albinos, Hypos, Pieds, G-Stripe and Clowns (if you've got the money) are all stable investments. From what I can tell, Clowns have only gone down 1-2k in the past year. Co-doms price drop drastically every year. It's all about instant results! If you've got the time and money, invest in some recessives!

If I were you, I'd start with recessives, then when I get going, purchase some co-doms for some mixing

Hope it helps.
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Ryan Farris

I agree... customer service is key! (Along with Quality of course)

I will be very loyal this season to one of my suppliers, I will wait to see what he hatches first, before considering anyone elses.
Another breeder, although I am thrilled with the animal I bought from him, will never have my business again. He rarely answered his emails or returned phone calls, despite having my sizable deposit.
In this day an age, everyone has busy, hectic schedules... if you make your customer feel that your time is more valuable then theirs, they will not return.
Most big breeders I've dealt with have great customer service: VPI, Roussis reptiles, Graziani, RDR, Marcusjayne... all take the time to answer even the most niave inquiries, and questions...PROMPTLY!
Best of luck!
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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

Exactly...and this is precisely what people mean by do it for the love of the animal.I'm convinced this is why the "big boys" are where they are today.(That and the fact that they hold back alot of things until they have enough stock to actually start selling to competition.)It's easy to talk about something you like(Kind of takes the work out of it.).
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

start out breeding normals or pastels, they will be easier to sell.

also the only way you wouldnt earn money is if you sell normals at a very low price. you seem like a smart guy, just keep track of what you spend and you should be able to figure out how much to charge in order to make a profit.
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jake

my addiction:
1.1? normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
0.1? amelenistic corn snake (zyklon)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)
hybrid breeders association
hybrid haven

the snakes.........not the money. That's a major problem with the ball python market is people look at things as an investment. So therefore are always looking for that investment back. When it comes time to raise that 4500 they paid for that original spider and spiders are selling for 1500 or 2k or whatever they are and they cannot sell them. A person figures well heck if i sell the 10 i produced for 700 each then I've atttained my original profit and a few bucks in my pocket, no harm no foul. Dont go into this "investment" worrying about making it back, that will only fuel you to sell the offspring cheaper to replenish your original financing. Hope this helps and good luck with your new found love of the snakes.

Mike Brooks
TNS Reptiles
Long Island, NY
631-732-4233

I agree. If someone's thinking of getting into BP's for the cash, they'd do well to check out the "Ball Python Business Trends and Issues" subforum. A lot of insight can be gained from people "in the game" of selling morphs of these snakes.

I think you guys are wrong on this one. If people did not get into ball pythons as an investment there would be no ball python market. No one would ever spend 5k, 10k or even more if they thought they would not recoup their investment. There also would not be most of the morphs out there that we see today. If there was no money to be made there would not be the amount of breeders out there trying to produce them. I feel its probably best to be in this hobby because you enjoy working with the animals, and to try to make a little profit too. I never understand why people around here treat the word business as a dirty word. I personally got into this to produce pieds, and one day a lavender albino pied because I think they are great looking snakes. I also plan to make some money along they way by selling snakes that I produce that do not help me reach my goal of a Lavender albino pied.

To the original poster, I would recommend buy a male pied and a few het females if you can afford it. Everyone seems to love pieds and the crosses are just starting to come out which will help the price stay up. Just buy from someone you trust, and the only way you can lose money is if they die or never produce.
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John Vandegrift

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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

there is ALWAYS more demand than supply

get a male orange ghost and get 3-5 het females
besides pastel females OG's also make everything awesome

If it is absolutely nessesary to recoup your investment quickly, then I would not do it.

Now if you don't mind waiting 3 years for your snakes to reach breeding size,all the while the value of your snakes keeps dropping, and then finally after 5-10 years breaking even, depending on price and how lucky you are, then I would say go for it.

Also buy what you like and try to improve upon it in some way. I have seen alot of not so spectacular pastels out there that I would not even consider buying. Truthfully I would spend 2x the money for a nice pastel as opposed to an ugly one.

If it takes you anything even close to 10 years to break even you are seriously doing something wrong. If you buy 1 visual male, and 3-5 het female you will make your money back and more in your first breeding season. Lets say you spend $4000 on a pied male, and $4800 on 4 het females. You have $8800 invested. If you get 06 animals they should be up to size by 08 or 09. Even if by then the price of pieds is down to $1500(which I doubt) you would still come out at least even. I am assuming 12 eggs total out of your females which should make about 6 pieds. Right there you are looking at $9000. Every season after that it is virtually 100% profit.
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John Vandegrift

Almost all morphs that are under $5,000 are over produced.

On 1-28-06 over 160 ads were placed in the Ball Python classifieds. Even the Leopard Geckos couldn't come close with only around 30. Most reptile shows are even worse. The Ball Python market is not going to hold it's prices on these older morphs for long because people will want to at least make some of there money back and will continue to dump there animals at lower and lower prices. Most people who are going to make money with balls have already done so.

It would be a better investment to pick up a small group of less common animals such as Angolans or Anthills. Not only will they hold there value better but it will be easier to make a name for yourself if you specialize in rarer snakes such as these.

what do you consider over produced? If you mean probably 20 very large breeders producing 20-30 clutches of a morph is being over produced than yeah they are over produced. Granted yeah there are some breeders that are producing tons of the older co-doms and the original recessive traits but even if there were 3000 albino's produced a year they would still sell out at $1000. And let's just say I'm optimistic, there is not going to be 3000 albino's produced in a year for a few more years. Pastel's are probably going to drop to maybe $250-$300 next year and that is where they will stay, we as a group cannot produce enough of them, you must remember we aren't dealing with burmese pythons or corn snakes, you are only going to get 4-10 eggs from a female a year and in some cases every 2-3 years. Should someone expect to make alot of money on a minimal investment, no that's just crazy. But if you put in the time and invest in the right projects there is still alot of money to be made out there. I personally have spent over $20k on my snakes and expect to break even and make a profit in the 07/08 breeding season where I'll be one of the very few producing super vanilla's, vanilla spiders, vanilla pastels and the more common pieds, albino's, citrus ghost, pastel's, super pastels, super hypo boa's, albino boa's, hopefully snow boa's and sunglow boa's. Granted I have spent alot of money and will continue to spend money and have put in alot of snake years to get the knowledge and experience I have in order to breed these snakes consistantly. I also have several very experienced breeders that I can go knock on their doors when I need some help or advice, but with time everyone can get these resources. Can the average person that likes snakes make a business out of their love, probably not. But the person who is dedicated to bringing these wonderful animals to new people certainly can.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Thanks guys for all the input, it has been really helpful! From the get-go I have found pieds to be absolutely amazing...and from the very beginning had said that I wanted to produce some of my own. I honestly can't even imagin the feeling of looking into your incubator one day and seeing a pied that just hatched! Must be awesome! But anyways, like I said, since I've begun my research I've been planning on heading down the path of pieds and then venturing in other directions along the way. I heard exactly what I needed to hear from everyone's responses so thanks to all who replied!

In my opinion the key to making it in this very competitive business/hobby is to be diverse in what you can supply. What I mean is having several different morphs/price categories for new customers. It is easier to sell a $400 pastel as a newbie breeder than it is to sell a $8000 clown or it's even harder to sell hets for the recessive traits. The route that my wife and I are going is to be able to provide snakes from prices as cheap as pastels up to double recessive crosses and still one of the rarest co-doms vanilla's and super vanilla's. Some of these projects will happen next year while others are still 3-4 years down the road. If you can't see where you want to go, it will be very hard to compete in this business but you will still make your money back and then some. The difference would be whether your snakes pay for your vacation or they pay for your house, you have to make the decission on what you won't out of them and then you have to work very hard and make it happen.
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Josh Hutto
J&K Reptiles

2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.0 Spider Ball python (Ballroom pythons south)
1.0 Vanilla Ball Python (Gulf Coast)
0.1 High Contrast Albino (Gulf Coast)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, Gulf Coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(Gulf Coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (Gulf Coast line)
1.1 graz pastel female
Alot of normal BP females (some not so normal)
2 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrier
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
0.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Last December I purchased a Spider Male for $7,000 several females. My male was an '04 that was 350 grams. Within a couple of months he got to 485 grams and I began introducing him to the adult females I also purchased that winter. He ended up producing 3 clutches and over 10 spiders. I was able to sell several spiders for cash to recoup my initial investment profit, then put together some trade deals for other snakes I wanted.

Co-dom & dom males is where it's at if you want to recoup your money very quickly because every normal female is essentially a het. However, expect prices on baby co-doms to drop almost of what you paid when you go to sell a season later, and another 50% cut from there -- so if you miss your first breeding season, the next season prices will be about 25% of what you paid for the babies you produce. Spiders and Pinstripes are very prolific breeders and become reproductively active at very small sizes, however, this is not necessarily true of all spiders & pinstripes or other morphs (which have their own idiosyncracies).

Pieds and other simple recessive morphs (excluding ghosts and axanthics) seem to be very in demand. They take a lot longer to work with and don't seem to be quite as hardy as the co-doms / doms, taking longer to get them up to breeding size. Because they take longer to produce, their prices don't appear to depreciate as quickly. As new combo morphs are produced (like the Spied) it creates more interest in the older morphs.

Regarding being a newbie and being able to sell your animals -- Kingsnake provides a terrific resource and somewhat levels the playing field. The key is excellent customer service.

I got into ball pythons because I enjoy the snake and saw an opportunity to work with them and make some money. I didn't get into this to become the next Brian Barczyk -- it's a hobby. I enjoy the diversion from reality and the thrill of watching baby ball pythons hatch. It's incredibly cool. I also enjoy thinking about combo morphs and hope to eventually prove out some new morphs and produce some designer combos that have not yet already been produced.

The key is to have fun. If you have fun, the money will eventually follow. If you have to make back your money immediately, it can be done, but you have to be prepared for the reality of supply and demand. Don't expect a morph you spent $10,000 on to produce $10,000 babies a year or two later -- there are more of them produced and for sale in the market than there were when you bought the morph. Also, most people who could have afforded the morph at the higher price point have already bought the morph -- that means more supply and less demand at the same price -- prices have to come down so the next tier of buyer can purchase at a lower price point.

Best wishes,
Python Joe