Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, several post down there was a question of this guy being a Gulf hammock or Grey rat. Here are some better head pictures. This guy was found in Escambia County FL (56 miles from Mobile AL) I am thinking he is a grey X yellow cross. What do you think? Sorry for the double post, but the other was so far down the page.

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Jenea

2:3 Tricolor Hognose
2:1 Eastern Hognose
1:2 Western Hognose
2:2 Southern Hognose
0:0:2 Florida Redbelly Snakes
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
1:2:2 Mediterranean Geckos
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

Like I said before, I think it's a gray. No yellows in Escambia are there??
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

So I have a brown grey rat snake......wierd. None of the pics I have show a stripe on the side of the neck like this one. Oh well.....still a cool little snake. I just thought some better head shots would help. Thanks.
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Jenea

2:3 Tricolor Hognose
2:1 Eastern Hognose
1:2 Western Hognose
2:2 Southern Hognose
0:0:2 Florida Redbelly Snakes
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
1:2:2 Mediterranean Geckos
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

If it were a Gulf Hammock (a Gray with stripes) you would be able to see stripes. It is very common for grays to be tan with brown saddles. I have seen in the past very young Black x Yellow intergrades, and you could see a yellow tinge coloring on their belly scales. I would say that you have just a normal Gray Rat Snake. You should feel lucky to have found such a nice looking creature. Just because it is normal doesn’t make is any less special. It is a wonderful find.

The top picture is a normal Gray that shows stripes in the area close to the head. Below is a Gulf Hammock Gray Rat morph. Note that you can see the stripes going down the length of its body.

...... at all.
There's much variability in just about every species. Read up as much as you can. Look at as many photos as you can. Not all snakes are "textbook" examples. I think most grays I've found in FL had brownish tones. Some have lots of reddish tones in GA. Just as corns vary so much throughout their range, so do grays.
They can have diferent colored eyes too.
The two photos I posted for you below show that grays can have striping and GH can have little.
Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Mark, very nice site. The photos are great. I don't mean to belabor the point, but your "Gulf Hammock" has no stripes. In fact it looks closer to a White Oak phase then a GH. It was the fact that Gulf Hammock Gray Rats had stripes that had them classified as a subspecies of Elaphe obsoleta (Elaphe obsoleta williamsi). Take a look at the link please. I think it makes my case.

Above: Gulf Hammock
Below: Gray Rat

THE RATSNAKES (Genus Elaphe) OF FLORIDA

Thanks for the compliments and info.
As you know, all GH do not look exactly the same. The locale of that snake says GH and those I've asked have said that locale rather than looks would be a better indicator. Are yours wc? My snake is from Gulf Hammock. I won't be any more specific here. I found it and I'm stickin' to it! haha! You can call it what you want of course! I'm hopeful to find a more "textbook" example for my photos and my "Snakes of Florida" site. I've used only snakes that I have found. It's more fun that way. (wish me luck on the rainbow snakes!)
They're all called "oak snakes" for sure and I'm sure this one will be a very nice looking snake as he matures.
There's even some "purplish" looking rats up around there.
The whole idea of williamsi or whatever may be invalid anyway I guess. Depends on which school you subscribe to.
I have gray rats from northeast FL that have some striping--sort of...
You've found snakes in a range where they're "supposed" to look one way but look different haven't you?
Well, off to PA in the a.m. Sat. so maybe a black rat will be accomodating....
:Mark

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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Let me explain, Rick,

I just got back this A.M. from Germany finally saw the pic of the GH on Mark's very nice sight.

One of the problems with forums is that the printed word does not necessarily show the correct emotion behind what people are saying, and with that disclaimer, let me say that this response is for discussion and not in any way meant to be offensive or argumentative.

A couple thoughts from a taxonomic view:

1. . . The whole concept of Rat Snake subspecies in peninsular Florida is like “trying to describe real numbers with integers”, or trying to “herd Jello”. There are more variances to the rules, than rules.

2. . . You're right in that Mark's GH picture doesn't fit the GH mold in the traditional manner,
...........B-U-U-U-U-T,

A. It's a juvenile and hasn't developed its stripes yet.
B. Between 1971 and 1977, again 1996 to 2000, I examined literally hundreds of GHs, live and DOR, from Crystal River to Perry, inland to Alachua County. (A Florida map in hand helps here.)
The subspecies, E. o. williamsi, had already been retired by then, and rightly so.
The variance, even in the same population, even in the same litter, is tremendous.
Mark is a straight up breeder and credible field helper, so I personally would not question his locality data.

From the hobbyist view:

Virtually anyone who produces striped and blotched, grayish American Rat Snakes can sell them as “Gulf Hammocks”. The truth is we can call them anything we want in the hobby.
I’ve even seen captivity contrived animals at expos, like yellow/gray crosses for Gulf Hammocks and everglades/gray crosses for Deckert’s.

Now, on your Gulf Hammock:
Please, I do not mean to doubt the word of your breeder (shoot… He may have caught his breeding stock inside the post office of the town of Gulf Hammock himself) but from the picture it looks like yours has “some” yellow gene flow, like maybe eastern Levi county, maybe even closer to Alachua County.
One thing that makes me say this is the lower contrast of the blotches and the bar that goes from the rear of the jaw, through the eye and across the head.
Even in your link to Bill Haast’s and Bob Anderson’s description, they say “The background color is whitish with all of the dark markings in strong contrast.”
Hey… It’s still a Gulf Hammock and a great animal….

I found some interesting views on the web, and, again, a Florida map is handy.
Manatee Springs - Good looking animal from close to the coast.
www.flickr.com/photos/codeburner/14026205/

High Springs - very far west, almost into Gray Rat territory
www.floridabackyardsnakes.com/GulfHammock.htm

Very Typical - I have no idea what locality.
http://www.naturepl.com/bin/npl.dll/go?a=disp&pt=1&t=ussr-loadersearch.html&si=&tc=&usp=0&_spb=0&_s
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Regards, Bill McGighan

"High Springs - very far west, almost into Gray Rat territory
www.floridabackyardsnakes.com/GulfHammock.htm "

should be:

"High Springs - very far east, probably into Gray Rat territory
www.floridabackyardsnakes.com/GulfHammock.htm "
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Its just your average south Al gray rat... No yellow rats in Alabama. nice snake though.

It's hard to tell cause it's so young, but certainly not a Gulf Hammock. Because of the locality, I don't think it's a Yellow x Grey intergrade either. Gray Ratsnakes sometimes can be champagne rather than gray. Since the animal is still so very young and allready has a lot of yellow, it will propably be quite attractive as an adult. Don't worry, be happy.

Jenea,
Just to add 2 redundant cents to this.
It's a great rat snake whatever name its given.
You’ve had some very knowledgeable folks here agree it is a Gray Rat Snake.

For perspective:
You are about 225 miles from where the nearest Yellow Rat and Gulf Hammock genes are propagating.

In your neck of the woods, there are a lot of yellowish brownish Gray Rat Snakes.

As you head east along the coast, not too far (certainly by Panama City), they loose their yellowish hue, and gray/white up. Often these are the animals called “White Oak” snakes by our hobby.
The locals call them “White Oak” snakes also.

The gray in the first picture below is from Apalachicola, Fl.
The locals here also call them “White Oak” snakes.

Continuing east, by Perry, Fl, they are nice light background with much defined H shaped blotches that can join for stripes, but not the developmental striping you see increase in Yellow Rat Snakes as they age.
The locals here also call them “White Oak” snakes.

If you follow the contour of Florida south on Rt 19-98 from Perry, striping is light but it keeps increasing.
The locals here also call them “White Oak” snakes.

Just north of the Suwannee River near the coast and south to Chiefland, they look much like the “pure” Gulf Hammock Rat Snakes as long as you don’t go to far east of Rt 19-98.

The “purest” Gulf Hammocks (like their description when they were considered a subspecies 30plus years ago) are mostly south of Chiefland and north of Yankeetown, if you are still following 19-98. The H blotches often join as hatchlings AND they develop stronger stripes with age. (Last two pictures)
The locals here also call them “White Oak” snakes!

You only have to go 15 miles east of 19-98 and you will already see the color yellow “creeping in". East to the Levi/Marion county boundary, they are intergrades between the Gulf Hammock and Yellow. They are very washed out and stripes and blotches are not dramatic.
By Williston they are clearly yellow.

Going south again to Crystal River, following 19-98, the blotches start fading and the stripes get stronger and yellow "creeps in".

Some where towards crimsonking-land, Yellow becomes the dominant color.

Hey, Mark, if you read this, don’t you have some good pics of a GH from a field trip awhile back?

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Regards, Bill McGighan

OK, It is a grey rat. Thanks guys. The only reason I kept pushing is because in the 30 years I have lived here (I grew up here) I have never seen a Grey Rat that wasn't grey (and seen quite a few as they liked to raid our chicken coup! ) Just wanted to be positive on what I had. Thanks for all the input and patience. One more question....any ideas about the odd off center spot on his head?? Most snakes seem to be kinda symmetrical in pattern. Thanks
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Jenea

2:3 Tricolor Hognose
2:1 Eastern Hognose
1:2 Western Hognose
2:2 Southern Hognose
0:0:2 Florida Redbelly Snakes
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
1:2:2 Mediterranean Geckos
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

I downloaded your picture and zoomed in on the head.
The mark on the head is a scar, probaly from some rodent incisors.
Many wild caught animals sport them.
If you look at the Apalachicola Gray I posted, its head has black and white scarring all over the head and neck.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Thanks! Will it eventually shed off?
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Jenea

2:3 Tricolor Hognose
2:1 Eastern Hognose
1:2 Western Hognose
2:2 Southern Hognose
0:0:2 Florida Redbelly Snakes
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
1:2:2 Mediterranean Geckos
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

Probably not.
Usually when the scars are black, they were deep or wide wounds, or both.
That gray that I posted was collected when he was 3 feet in 2000 and he had the scar then.
He's now the dominant male in my Gray Rat breeding colony, about 6 feet long, and still heavily scarred.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Since he's been in captivity, he's had no live prey, only F/T rats.
These scars are from his wilder days, as are most people's!!!

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Regards, Bill McGighan

This little guy instantly took f/t fuzzies without an issue. he even took a medium adult mouse once. That one lasted him a while. Do rats get brighter with age or darker??
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Jenea

2:3 Tricolor Hognose
2:1 Eastern Hognose
1:2 Western Hognose
2:2 Southern Hognose
0:0:2 Florida Redbelly Snakes
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:1 Red-eared Slider
1:2:2 Mediterranean Geckos
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

It's variable, even to the individual level.
Generally, however, most of the North American group darken from hatchlings and develop adult coloration that is often nicer.
Fl panhandle grays seem to not darken too much. That has always been their uniqueness in that they hold their pattern through life.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Gorgeous little grey you have there! Question though, aren't GH's generally considered to be grey/yellow intergrades? Aren't they only found in the area where their respective ranges overlap? Isn't that also why so many display both the blotches and stripes?

Billy

>>OK, several post down there was a question of this guy being a Gulf hammock or Grey rat. Here are some better head pictures. This guy was found in Escambia County FL (56 miles from Mobile AL) I am thinking he is a grey X yellow cross. What do you think? Sorry for the double post, but the other was so far down the page.
>>
>>
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>>Jenea
>>
>>2:3 Tricolor Hognose
>>2:1 Eastern Hognose
>>1:2 Western Hognose
>>2:2 Southern Hognose
>>0:0:2 Florida Redbelly Snakes
>>0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
>>1:1 Red-eared Slider
>>1:2:2 Mediterranean Geckos
>>2:0 Cats
>>1:1 Kids
>>1:0 Spouse

While I did not wade through all of the replies to your original post, I can assure you that any obsoleta collected in Escambia county is spiloides. That said, there is always a lot of variation in these snakes. Attached is a pic of a Levy county "williamsi" that I personally collected.

Here's a pic of another Levy county "williamsi" personally collected about a quarter mile from the previous one. Like I said, there is a lot of variability in these snakes. The common denominator is that they do exhibit some striping on their dorsal surface. All "willaimsi" that I have ever collected are more like gray rats than yellows. They also seem to have the best dispositions. They are very curious and always are checkng out their keeper. These guys will never pass up a meal!

Steve,
1. Email me if you need location data for finding more "GHs" like this last one.
2. Is that you at Tumi chucua????
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Regards, Bill McGighan