Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I called the New York Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) last week, and found that a regulation was passed in 2005 that basically turned reptiles and amphibians into game species, but NO SEASON was established for them, and NO GRANDFATHERING clause was included.

Thus, it is now illegal to possess any native NY species in New York state! Your pet painted turtle or rat snake that you may have had for 10 or 20 years (or more) is now illegal and could be confiscated!

If you are concerned about this, I urge you to write to the
Commissioner of the DEC, the Director of the Fish, Wildlife, and
Marine Resources Department in the DEC, and your state legislators - if the DEC won't change the regulations to at least grandfather native species in possession at the time the regulations were passed (what about people that want to relocated to NY with their pets from another state?), NY residents might want to ask their senator or delegate to sponsor a bill that will allow possession of non-wild-
caught native repitles by the public.

It states on the DEC website that the DEC exists to:"conserve,
improve, and protect New York State's natural resources and
environment, and control water, land and air pollution, in order to enhance the health, safety and welfare of the people of the state and their overall economic and social well being."

- I don't think that banning the possession of native reptiles is going to "enhance... the econimic well being" of the state. If anything, it will cause people to relocate OUT of state, prevent families from relocating to NY, and will drive down sales tax from the sale of pet supplies and building supplies that so many of us spend on our animals!

Maryland, New Jersey, and Ohio all have permitting processes for
their native reptiles that allows the keeping and breeding of native reptiles while still protecting wild populations from collection. Why can't NY do the same?

You can contact the DEC at http://www.dec.state.ny.us/index.html

Katrina

Katrina, as I replied back to you on another board, not all species are banned at this time. The Painted Turtle is one of these species. Also, they are going to be changing it so that we are able to keep some of the more commonly kept native species. This is to allow people, especially children to have access to these reptiles. The stipulation will be that only a certain number will be kept.

I voiced my opposition anyways and the guy noted it. Does it suck that this is happening? Sure does, but I have a feeling that just like the exotic bill that passed that same year, there will have to be a middle ground. They can just as well turn around and say that all species are now banned and that's the end of it. I would rather that not happen.

How do you know that painteds aren't included? A rehabber friend of mine in NY was told that they ARE included.

Katrina
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1.2 Eastern Muds - Fred, Ethel, Edith
0.1 Iguana - Tiffel
0.1 Bearded Dragon - Foster
Foster turtles: More than I'd like the husband to know about.

I know because I called the guys at the endangered species office. They are the ones that put forth these regulations and he told me that Painted Turtles aren't included at this time. That they actually made a mistake and excluded them in some way. Again, he also told me that their intention wasn't to keep these reptiles away from people, especially children and that they are going to be changing so that you can keep a certain number of each species. The reason for this is that they keep getting calls from collectors outside of the state who want to come in and take these reptiles from the wild. As more states pass similar legislation and regulations, those states that don't have some sort of protection will get "raped" so to speak. Please excuse my use of the word, but it's the best word that describes what will happen. So NYS is doing this to make sure it doesn't happen. Again, this is from the horses mouth.

I agree there should be some sort of permit system, but I don't want to see the permit system in place for those animals that are grandfathered in for the exotics bill where the permit is something like $175. If it ends up being like that, then you can bet most people won't have native reptiles in this state. I know that I couldn't afford it. Thank god Boa Constrictors were exempted from the exotic bill otherwise I would be putting out several hundred dollars for permits.

I'll have to call DEC again - it seems that different departments are giving out different information.

Katrina

And like I've said, MD allows native herps to be kept with a permit. Only those considered endangered in the state are banned from private possession. You can even keep unlimmited numbers of box, wood, and spotteds in MD (and now captively breed them) IF you have a permit AND have proof that the turtles weren't taken from the wilds of MD after the regs went into affect.

Katrina
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1.2 Eastern Muds - Fred, Ethel, Edith
0.1 Iguana - Tiffel
0.1 Bearded Dragon - Foster
Foster turtles: More than I'd like the husband to know about.

As of now, you're correct, all species are protected....however, most species under the NY regulation allow certain numbers to be collected. There are stipulations for collecting, but as I mentioned in the previous post, they will scrutinize who justifiably needs to be collecting 20 milks snakes. I voiced my concern to the Endangered Species Unit last year, stating that you COULD simply allow a maximum possesson of 5 adult animals of one species (for example, allow 5 over 20 inches for a milk snake and 15 under 12 inches, which you must get rid of by the end of the year)....This would have 1) Allowed a person to collect breeding stock AND sell the offspring without depleting wild populations.

BUT, their aim was to have legal grounds to convict poachers, primarily of non-game species(wood turtles, box turtles) and species of special concern. The problem is, HOW do you regulate turtles when you don't have any concrete data for how many turtles are out there? In contrast to Maryland, I don't believe unlimited collection of turtles is a good thing. No one needs to be taking 20 (or more than 2 for that matter) turtles a year from the wild.

I think you misread my post. MD regs DO NOT allow wood or spotted turtles to be removed from the wild in MD. Only ONE eastern box turtle in possession can be wild-caught (that means without paperwork proving how you acquired it).

I do not approve of wild collection by the general public or the sale of wild-caught animals, but people shouldn't have to surrender family pets that they've had for years, either.

Katrina

Posted by: Matt Harris at Sat Jul 1 22:52:16 2006

In contrast to Maryland, I don't believe unlimited collection of turtles is a good thing. No one needs to be taking 20 (or more than 2 for that matter) turtles a year from the wild.
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1.2 Eastern Muds - Fred, Ethel, Edith
0.1 Iguana - Tiffel
0.1 Bearded Dragon - Foster
Foster turtles: More than I'd like the husband to know about.

I may have, although the way you stated that unlimited numbers can be kept, made it appear that any number could be kept. The real issue is having paperwork to show that they aren't WC in MD. But, does that make it ok to buy a turtle that was WC from out of state(not trying to cause a debate, more of a rhetorical ramble). I think any of the states trying to pass reasonable legislation, fail to do so, when they don't allow for persons to maintain a reasonable number of animals (WC or otherwise). The simple answer it just REQUIRE PIT tags. They're cheap($10) and it solves the problem. If they don't have PIT tags, fine the individual and confiscate the animals.

The other lame argument they give is that they don't have the staff to police everyone. Well, you don't need to. It's just like sampling a manufacturing process....you sample (or in our case, inspect) a certain fraction of all permitees each year and so long as everyone is abiding by the regs, you don't increase your inspections until you start to find a higher number of violations.

I had to jump through a few hoops to get permits for eastern massasuagas, but since I receiver the permit and have had the animals, I've never been inspected(although, I often display the snakes where DEC personnel are present, so its not a big mystery that I have the snakes) but none the less, things could be more restrictive. At least NY has a permit process....I've heard PA is nearly impossible to get a permit for endangered species.

In regards to the inspection, that's how it's done in MD - a sampling. I don't know how they pick them - maybe everyone with a permit in a given county, with one or two counties a year targeted - but they do random inspections on permit holders. I know some people that have never been inspected, but I also know some that have been inspected twice in five years.

Funny that you described it like that, as a sampling. I work in biotech, and 10-20% of our vialed product must be tested for sterility, and that's how we describe it. I never realized that what our DNR was doing was basically the same thing.

Katrina
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1.2 Eastern Muds - Fred, Ethel, Edith
0.1 Iguana - Tiffel
0.1 Bearded Dragon - Foster
Foster turtles: More than I'd like the husband to know about.

...simply received an License to collect/Possess(LCP). It wasn't a big deal. It simply gives the DEC grounds to prosecute persons known to poach species of special concern. In the past, certain species, such as hognose snakes and spotted turtles had no legal protection whatsoever. Recently, persons were found to be overcollecting spotted turtles for sales out of state, but DEC had no grounds to prosecute these people.

This regulation wasn't aimed at the casual pet owner who wants a spotted turtle, but DEC IS going to scrutinize who does and doesn't receive a permit.

They are SUPPOSED to be drafting regulations for reptile exhibitors, however that again is moving at a snails pace. You have to love bureacracies.

Matt Harris

Its funny, OK not funny really, more like sad, that when the initial bills get introduced they seem to fly through legislature and once they are passed any changes move very slowly. I have always felt that lawmakers prefer outright bans to permits and posseion limits and the like because it is so much easier to enforce the laws. If it is banned and you have one you are breaking the law. Boom case closed. If there are possesion limits and permits it greatly increases the costs of enforcement.

Steve Schindler

..most legislators favor outright bans, simply because they look at this as a burden and the number of people it affects as insignificant.

However, legislators also passed the 'state reptile' bill (see the post below on the forum) and while it may or may not help turtle conservation, I hardly see it as a 'lesson of how our government' works----or MAYBE it is. The bill was introduced and students were allowed to vote for a TURTLE as our state reptile. NOW, tell me how can you have a thoroughly decomcratic unbiased vote on reptiles...if you've limited it to turtles? Are there not lizards and snakes in NY that should be placed on the list for the vote?????

That's how laws get passed in an over-legislated state. HOWEVER, if you want to build a strip mall anywhere along the thruway or Northway in New York state......GO AHEAD, feel free, Bulldoze all of the hognose snake, blanding's turtle and box turtle habitat you want---so long as it brings in more tax dollars for our legislature to waste, its fine and dandy!!

My wife thought the same thing. She's said there are other reptiles in this state other then Turtles. She thought maybe the Rattlesnake whould have been given consideration. I have seen more of those around then snapping turtles. Hell, we had one in our yeard the first week we moved here in Upstate NY. About 4 years ago they released over 100 in the state forrest across the street.

They released 100??? That's news to me. DEC has formulated in their management plans, the possibility of releasing rattlesnakes(massasaugas anyway) into historically known habitats, but I've not heard of them actually head starting anything other than turtles.

Hmmm, if you want, email me privately, I'd like to know more about this.

I do know one of the massasauga sites has been closed now to the general public to protect the snakes during the active summer months.

MH

I probably should have asked the gentleman I talked to when I had him on the phone, but hindsight is 20/20.

Are Red-Eared Sliders considered native to NY? I don't believe they originated here, so that in essence would mean that's it's not native, but I know that they have been here long enough and do breed here. I have a RES and would like to know what will happen with this bill in regards to him.

I really wouldn't lose sleep over it.

To be honest, I'm really not.

RES are not native. Some states consider them "naturalized", but not New York. Red-eared sliders are native to the Miss. River System. Native yellowbellied slider populations stop at Virginia (although there is debate if a couple of small colonies in southern MD are native or descendants of released pets).

Katrina
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1.2 Eastern Muds - Fred, Ethel, Edith
0.1 Iguana - Tiffel
0.1 Bearded Dragon - Foster
Foster turtles: More than I'd like the husband to know about.