Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As many of you know, I am interested in reptilian behavior, not simply getting eggs. Over the years, my understanding of reptile nesting and changed a lot.

In the case of kingsnakes, they are very easy to get eggs from. But they really do have some nice behaviors.

In the last 15 years or so, I have been working with varanids. Varanids are more bird like then reptile like, in many ways. In this case, nesting. Monitors will simply fail if the proper nesting is not provided. If it is provided, they lay eggs somewhat like a Pez despenser.

What is even more interesting is, like with birds, monitors nest way before they breed. They nest as soon as they form folicules. They make a nest, move to a nesting areas, or simply stay where they are going to nest. Again like birds.

So, I decided to try to back engineer this and see what snakes would do. In the field, snakes move to where they will breed and nest, well before the nesting season. They move to these areas in late fall to late winter and stay there until nesting is complete.

In captivity, we normally did nothing or gave them what we called a nest(moist stuff in a plastic box) sometime after their pre-egglaying shed. Normally a week or more after they shed.

I did some testing in the past and have created conditions that allowed egg laying to commonly occur from 1 to 5 days after shedding.

Which brings us to now. This year, I combined our old snake nesting with our new varanid nesting. That is, using the glass plates buried in substrate, combined with making it a lot deeper and secure and providing it very early. Right after copulation. With monitors, nesting occurs pre-copulation.

So I took a few pics.

Here is a pic right after her pre-egglaying shed. Notice the hole she already made. She had built the nesting chamber before she shed.

Notice the entry hole on the right and the exit hole on the left. Notice the exit hole is smaller, hahahahahahahahaha.

Heres the eggs right below the exit hole. In this attempt, we used to layers of glass plate and she chose the deepest one.

Whoops, the holes were under a board, I use a stack of boards(retes boards in the varanid world)(I actually used them with kingsnakes long long before monitors) And the two eggs closest to you are infertile, the rest are fine, this is her second clutch. Both of her clutches this year where laid 4 days after shedding. Enjoy the pics.

Thank you.
That's quite fascinating.

That's awesome! I bet there's a lot more about their mating behavior that's yet to be discovered.
Thanks for sharing Frank!
-Phil

Great stuff, Frank. Have you ever housed multiple females (snakes) together at "nesting time"? What about both sexes?
If so, did you notice any behavior worthy of mention?
I think lots of us would like to do what you have done with regards to the whole keeping/breeding/laying aspects.
What about live-bearers? Have you worked with any? Noticed any similarities? Differences?
Hots like Crotalus or Agkistrodon?
Thanks for the pics and accounts here.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Nothing to with snakes - but I've heard (from Stebbins) that some species of Alligator Lizards will sometimes use a community nest with several mothers guarding the eggs - allowing females that have laid to feed without the eggs being left unguarded.

I think we have now come full circle.
We began captive breeding by trying to simulate the natural conditions with day length and temperature cycle. It was guys like you who helped perfect the current recipe. So now that we’ve got it down to it’s most predictable efficient self, you are questioning your accomplishment. What you are comparing is commercial snake farming or domesticating them, to the maintenance of wild snakes in captivity. Ditmars use to write about snakes eating mice and sparrows. When is the last time anybody fed a freakin sparrow to a snake? The old guy might have just been doing it right way back when. He was far more into keeping them for study and observation than snake farming. I have a similar interest in observing these animals in the wild and trying to figure out why they look so much more colorful, robust, healthy and bad a$$ than our pampered, doctored, vitaminized and deparisitized captive “gems”. I am including this photo cause it illustrates my point, why is this wild iguana so much healthier looking than the most well maintained captive? They eat grass and bird poop and dirt and they are healthy as can be. If we catch him and feed him the best vitamin sprinkled grocery store veggies, he will probably croak in a month. I think we need to keep up the study and observation. I’m with Ditmars (and you).

I am not sure you have a point or at least you masked it well.

In the old days, I fed tons of sparrows, the reason was, there were no rodent breeders. There was no rodent chow, or rodent cages. You had to make all sure things yourself.

There was no ordering frozen mice or mealworms or crickets, etc. It was up to the keeper.

Also, nearly all keepers back then were cabinet builders. As we had to make our own cages, No vision or rubbermaids.

The real point is, what does a cage represent or suppose to represent. In the old days a cage was an attempt to represent their enviornment(however poorly) Now cages are only the burrow the snakes live in. The rest is gone.

For instance, people get the idea that your suppose to put a box is your box and call it nesting. Where the reality is, a snake understands to go to an area that is suitable for hatching eggs and raising neonates. That area is larger then the box.

In many cases our females are in shoe boxes up until they cycle, then are moved to a nesting cage which is many times larger then the box(burrow) they lived in.

While this does express many natural behaviors its not anything like nature. Its merely allowing a few behaviors.

I have to question what you call commerical breeders, the folks here are not commerical breeders, yes they sell or barder offspring, but what are you suppose to do with excess offspring. Surely they are not a gormet rodent or a Mark Bell? They are commerical they produce many tens of thousands of units yearly.

The sad part is, people in the private keeping world, keep their snakes like the Bells. The reality is, there is no reason to do that. Cheers

Thanks for the great report frank. I think you said you used regular gardening soil that was debugged for nesting material? Thanks for the insights and is it hotternhell there yet?
Todd Hughes

With a set up like you shared, do you leave the eggs there to hatch or move them to an area where you can better monitor the conditions?
Thanks,
Bob

nm

Vertical humidity gradient and deep substrate. Can't do that in a shoebox. I bet egg-binding cases would be much less common with nests like that. Comments?

Actually I have used much deeper and bigger. And your correct, I have never had an eggbinding problem with good nests. The reason is, its a symtom of poor nesting and or dehydration. Cheers

...an old friend (animal wholesaler) used to put gravid egg laying snakes brought to him in 20 gal aquariums filled with moistened peat moss and damp sphagnum as a top layer. They (nests)ended up looking much as yours do now. Basically, he would feed if he thought they were not too close to laying, but otherwise a waterdish and that's all. They would disappear (people who didn't know would ask, "anything in this tank?" and when they'd finally come topside, most times would be thin, so he knew he had eggs..
He'd remove the female, feed her and (usually)sell her off.
The eggs were left alone until about 45-60 days later, they would hatch and the babies too would come topside to investigate. That's all he ever did. It gets hot here but as you say, the sheer volume keeps things quite stable over that (relatively) short period.
Good stuff.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com