Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Holly, I noticed in your disertation, which I found very informative BTW, and in the group in general lately the idea of leaving the lights on 24/7. Is it not necessary for monitors to have a day/night cycle to function properly? I know it is for other reptiles, especially for breeding purposes. Just curious. I can't imagine a monitor liking the lights glaring at him all the time . Thanks.

Quig

Monitors do not stay out all day and go in at night. They also do not sleep in a human fashion. They sleep at night and in the day. They spend most of each day in burrows and other dark areas.

In captivity monitors should have dark hiding places available 24/7. They should never be held in a cage where they cannot hide. So, when provided dark hiding places, it does not matter when the lites are on. They should be able to get away from lite at any time they wish. No matter what the lite cycle is.

In practice, monitors will bask both in the day and at night. They perfer to not bask in front of people, and it has nothing to do with how tame a monitor is. Perfectly tame monitors will avoid public behavior as well.

If you have a group cage, they will often bask at both the same time and at different times. Sometimes they perfer to bask with other individuals, sometimes they don't.

So the reality is, lites on 24/7 provides them with choices. And they do use those choices. And they use them to their benefit.

Its only us humans that think they are suppose to do this or that. I often wonder where we get those ideas.

And lastly, monitors know the difference between a lite and the sun. A lite bulb is only a litebulb and a minor heat source. Its not the sun.

If I think about it, I have to laugh. We know a lite bulb is not the sun, so why on earth would we think a monitor thinks a litebulb is the sun? Us humans are an arrogant bunch.

I believe I told this story for Vivarium mag in the interview they did on me. Years ago my wife and I were in the mountains in mexico. A huricane had hit the coast and it was raining and raining and raining. We found a ramada the cowboys use during cattle roundups. The ramada had tin sides and roof and a fire pit. We made a fire to keep warm. It was cold and rained solid all night. During the night, we stayed close to the fire to keep warm. Guess what? Spiny lizards(Yarrows spinys) came out and basked by the fire too. I then realized, they had more going on in their heads then I had previously thought. Cheers

Thanks Frank, I just assumed a day/night cycle was a necessity.

I also liked your story. It reminded me of a time in Vietnam when I experienced much the same thing. I thought they were just looking for bugs(dinner)

Quig

Regarding monitors knowing that a light bulb is not the sun...

Doesn't the light from a light bulb create stimuli that would trigger, maybe, day behavior over night time behavior? I am not saying that a light bulb even compares to the rays of the sun, but just in the sense of stimuli. Obviously everything we put into a cage is there to serve some sort of purpose to represent a physiological need they have in nature. Do you not think it would be beneficial to try to replicate as closely as possible the stimuli, such as light, that they would receive in nature.

I am aware that these are captive animals, not wild animals and the conditions are different, but some of us keep these animals to see these neat natural behaviors in our homes. I certainly do not want to condition my animals to not display natural behaviors, what is the fun in that; otherwise I might as well keep a Chia Pet.

With a 24/7 cycle it seems it could hinder certain behaviors that monitors may display in the open if there wasn’t light. I understand what you are saying in regards to

“24/7 provides them with choices. And they do use those choices. And they use them to their benefit.”

But wouldn’t a 12/12 or other combination actually provide them with more choices, like cruising around without the light in their eyes at certain times of the day and then times of the day to cruise with light.

”In captivity monitors should have dark hiding places available 24/7. They should never be held in a cage where they cannot hide. So, when provided dark hiding places, it does not matter when the lites are on. They should be able to get away from lite at any time they wish. No matter what the lite cycle is.”

I completely agree with the beginning portion of this statement, but I also think that if the lights are on 24/7 they may be forced to go into a burrow when say they want to be out and about but just not with a light source on.

I am not suggesting to not provide a heat source. Another option that allows you to provide night time heat as well as cover of darkness is to provide same wattage night bulbs in place of day bulbs. This will provide heart and basking spots as well as security and the natural ambient temp drop, that will allow night time temps to drop but no different than the same wattage day bulb would drop. Timers are cheap and easy to set up, making it no inconvenience to you. I do not buy into the “moon luminance” these bulbs advertise, but I they are the same price as day bulbs from Home Depot when purchased in bulk.

Boy that turned into a ramble…
Just a thought.

Cheers,
Michaela

www.roughneckmonitors.com

The problem is, your assuming you understand these reptiles. And in my opinion you don't. Your also assuming you understand what they seek in nature, again in my opinion, you don't understand that either.

Then you must question what I understand or think of monitors. I try not the think, it only gets you in trouble. I turn to the monitors for answers.

I have kept a number of monitors(average 75 over 16 years) outside. They do not have lite bulbs in all but the coldest parts of the winter. Which means, they have the sun. We have commonly observed them active after dark. In fact, one lacie female commonly hunts at night in the dark. I will walk by and hear her ratting around chasing mice. Yes, I must have mice in the cage or she would not have to rat around and chase them. (this last sentence is important, if you do not allow something to happen, it won't and its nothing to do with the monitors, its all about you)

Many of our monitors will commonly feed at night. All you have to do is place food out in the evening and its gone in the mourning. Now compare that to placing food in the cage in the mourning and have it gone by afternoon. This is in cages without lite at night. The key here is, most likely your are prone to feeding in the day, therefore you will not see night feeding. Try feeding at night? It will most likely take a few days before your monitor figures out, that you tricked it and it will feed at night. Then if you change that and feed in the day, the monitor will be tricked again. You actually train your monitors by how you service them. Its really not about them. Its again about you.

Also, I live in the desert and have lots of reptiles around. Many of the most diurnal commonly come out at night. Also many of the most supposed nocturnal species commonly come out in the day. You see, these terms are for ease of understanding, they are not suppose to make reptiles fit them.

In Australia, I found five species of varanids crossing the roads at night. As well as four or five subspecies of Pagona(bearded dragons) As well as many of the common diurnal lizards. I have found many other species out at night, but not crossing roads.

So yes, I try to offer what they understand in nature, its seems what I understand is not what you seem to understand.

In nature they understand heat sources and use them day and night, and by season. They understand where they are and use them at the time they are needed. This includes day and night.

They also understand food sources, they understand them on a 24/7 basis. Its funny but many diurnal lizards become active the nights termites fly. Man do they love termites.

Not to be rude, but I cannot help myself, do you turn your lites off in the day when your monitor goes in its hide? Do your monitors spend all day everyday OUT? Do your monitors sleep in the day? Do these questions pertain to nature?

If you actually went out and saw monitors, you would understand, they spend only a very small portion, of even their most active days, out in sunlite. Nearly 95% of their time is in the dark.

Your from central Cal? you have lizards like bluebellies, that are out a lot, you have utas that are out a lot. You also have leopard lizards that behave a lot like varanids and they are rarely seen out. Same with alligator lizards, they do come out, just not much. Alligator lizards are mostly underthings in holes in bushes and other non sunny areas. They too are a lot like many small monitor species. You also have lots of skinks, which are commonly under tin and such during early spring, then disappear, again like monitors. Are these species any less common then bluebellies or utas? or do they simply behave differently? Monitors are super abundant. They just hide a lot.

It appears to me, your treating monitors like plants(litecycle) instead of what they are, varanids.

Then the question of what a litebulb is to a monitor. Now that your not breeding monitors, why not test some. How about raising some up without any lites? All you have to do is give them other heat sources and you will find litebulbs are not necessary at all.

It appears to me, you want to make this huge inventory of knowledge(websites) yet you do not and have not tested anything other then common basics. Have you tested what people think they don't do. If not, you are very incomplete in your testing, therefore in your base of knowledge.

Now Ben should have told you, I have indoor cages, outdoor cages, indoor/outdoor cages. I have cages with lites on 24/7 and cages on a lite cycle. I have also tested no lites at all. Guess what, if other basics are met, there is not difference in the lite applications. Ones with no lites will do as well as ones on a litecycle and as well as ones with lites on 24/7. So it appears what allows monitors to succeed or fail, is about other things not litebulbs.

Lastly I do not want to hear, so your saying this and that. No, I am only saying the above. I am not saying you have to do any dang thing. I am merely saying what I see monitors do and do on their own. Cheers

Thank you for clarifying that monitors are active at night, that would then explain why I think that night bulbs are helpful for this behavior…to provide heat without the light and to give them more options.

I do not assume things when it comes to monitors. I have only gone by what I have seen from my monitors…they are often active at night and so I often feed them at night when they are active.

I too am from the desert (Tucson, AZ), raised there and lived there for over 20 years. And was fortunate enough to observe all the amazing reptiles that lived in my backyard. I am not from central California, nor have I ever lived there.

I think it is obvious who has been making the assumptions here.

Cheers,
Michaela

Dang, your thinking about my assumptions about you. How odd? I never claimed to know anything about you.

I would think you could have said, Frank, I am for Tucson and I have notice that reptiles are normally down in mid-day. Or disagree, but to talk about assumptions about you. I was talking about monitors or other reptiles. You were not considered. I don't know you, I only know what you said.

About lite bulbs on at night, they like it, they use it, they prosper from it. No more needs to be said. You can do whatever you like, for whatever reason. As I have said many times, we have monitors with lite cycle, with lites on 24/7 and outside with natural lite. They all perform the same. The reason is, I give them what they need. Which includes their homes. I do not put lites in their homes. That would be rude, their cage is a wall the keeps them in. Their homes should be within the walls. Cheers

if its that they bask at night wich they do like i said i use a red bulb at night and its in the same place my basking spot in the day is , i see my croc basking in the day , and i also see him in the night basking under the red bulb. this is the way ive kept all my monitors and they all do the same thing (basking in the day under the day bulb and at night under the red bulb) and they eat grow and are doing just fine. so its a personal choice like i said having the lights on 24/7 so you dont have to change anything is also just making it easy for the keeper, its not really that hard to change a bulb you can use 60 watt day then a 60 watt night(red) same wattage you get the point or a little lower at night for a night time temp drop

Back about monitors and light intensities.
He explained that basically the suns light intensity at noon time where monitors are found is about 25 times what the brightest office lighting is (equivalent to or half the intensity of the same light intensity readings found in early evening after the sun has gone down and most monitors are sleeping, even in the open in nature), the average house lightbulbs (most commonly used by most reptile keepers with reptiles in captivity) are around 1/4th to 1/10th the intensity of such office lighting (equivalent to or less than the intensity readings measured outdoors in areas monitors live naturally hours after they have gone to sleep and the sun is down). The light intensity readings from those mercury vapor bulbs can produce light intensities around 2-2.5 times that of the brightest office lighting.
So considering this, how could we ever bother, let alone effect a light cycle on anything with household lighting, its not possible, I think its an illusion or an excuse, also it helps the pet industry sell a fortune in reptile lightbulbs.
Ill see if I can find the quote from Sam, I know I saved that one, it seemed so useful for future discussions on monitors, reptiles, and light cycles, also debunks alot of myths on forcing light cycles, or what monitors think of our lightbulbs, or how they compare to the sun in any way.