Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have often heard the saying "I would rather live a year in freedom than a hundred in a cage" But I have also know that snakes who are brought to captivity live longer less stressful lives. My question is, how do you feel about taking these snakes away from their natural habitat? Are herping trips ethical? Am I robbing these creatures of their potential and freedom? I just want to do the right thhing but I dont know what the right thing is.

I think it is important to not take more animals than you can care for.

I think it is important to not take any animals you do not know how to care for.

I think it is important to follow all local laws - and always return boards/logs/etc to their original position, and never destroy a hiding spot in the field.

I think it is important to not take any animal that you do not already have caging for. Keeping it in a makeshift cage until you buy proper caging is wrong. Proper caging means a quarantine tank that has been cleaned and is ready to receive a new pet with very little setup required.

I think it is important to not take wild animals from a population that you know is in trouble, with one exception - habitat destruction.

If, say, rubber boa sighting are becoming extremely rare in your area but there is plenty of habitat - then release any you find. If the fields are being bulldozed, the wild habitat can no longer support the population. In those cases, collection means reduction of population that would have happened via animal death anyway.

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The primary factor for the demise of most species is habitat destruction, not the hobbyist herper. In some places, commercial collection may also decimate a population, but the hobbyist is not a commercial collector.

Some species should only be taken by the scientific commnunity because they simply do not make good pets - such as slender salamanders, sharp tailed snakes, some species of ringneck snakes (some only feed on slender salamanders and are thus difficult to keep), etc.

-=-

I think it is important to occasionally take WC snakes from places where the population is healthy for the purpose of introducing new genetic material to the captive bred lines.

Some species (California Kingsnakes) have plenty of genetic variety in captivity, but some may not.

Anyway - those are my thoughts.

Technically it is illegal where I live, but I like catch, observe, release - where you collect a wild specimen, keep it for a few days - and then release it EXACTLY where you collected it.

The cage needs to be cleaned after release before the next capture to prevent disease transmission, and hands should be washed before/after handling of course.

I also do catch and keep for some specimens.

With a VERY few exceptions, I personally feel that there is enough variety AND value out there in terms of captive bred animals that it makes almost no sense at all to harvest them from the wild any more. And I have even stronger views on wild caught imports, which supports a trade that destroys many animals for profit. When I read the KS classifieds and see w/c animals for sale from OUR area, I also bristle.

Many people view w/c animals as a cheaper alternative to buying one. But given the fact that most experienced herpers suggest such measures as a fecal float, vet visit, and or whatever measures need to be taken to rid these animals of pests, a properly cared for w/c snake can/should be MORE expensive than many of our common c/b animals.

I am always concerned when I hear that a w/c animal is introduced into someone's c/b collection. I suspect that cross-contamination happens more that some people think, and the c/b animals are not equipped to deal with this situation.

So...With the exception of a few experienced breeders out there who want to introduce some new and/or locale specific genes into their stock (and are willing and able to do it CORRECTLY in terms of the health of ALL their animals)...I say leave the wild snakes in the wild and enjoy the heck out of the huge variety that we have available as c/b specimens. Just my opinion, although I must say that I do feel rather strongly about this issue. Duffy

> But given the fact that most experienced herpers suggest such
> measures as a fecal float, vet visit, and or whatever measures
> need to be taken to rid these animals of pests, a properly cared
> for w/c snake can/should be MORE expensive than many of our
> common c/b animals.

I'd just like to emphasize - a captive bred animal should go through the same process as a WC snake when adding to a collection. Many WC snakes are very healthy and many CB snakes are full of parasites.

Back in the 80s I bought a CB Baja Gopher Snake, a beautiful specimen, adult male 3.5' long. He regurgitated every time he ate. Several expensive vet bills later and failed attempts to rid him of the parasites, he died. None of my WC Pacific Gophers ever needed to see a veterinarian.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (gravid)

Ditto on the person that had health, contagious. parasitic diseases on captive bred. I for one, and in my earlier days of keeping a lot of w/c, had just as many problems with health on captive bred as my w/c. In fact as other said, rarely did I have to seek treatment for a w/c compared to my captive bred. Of course protocol of quarantine is the same for both but probably more important and longer for w/c.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Please correct me if I a wrong but I think the question was intended to address the issue of taking the freedom away from a wild animal. I don't have an answer but I too struggle with that dilema with even the captive bred snakes. I would like to hear thoughts on that aspect of this question. There were only reponses to the health of wild caught and captive specimens and not on the ethics of taking the freedom of wild caught animals away.

Thanks,
Miller
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0.1 Florida King ('02 Pit & '00 Pearl)
1.1 Eastern Kings (2004 Orca & Sugar Pie)
1.0 Black Milksnake (2005 Bubba)
0.1 Okeetee Corn (Pumpkin)
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.2 Cats (Stella and Shug)
0.0.11 eggs a incubating!

The original question is actually a general one...and a good one at that. The part of the question that the original poster struggles with is the part you are making reference to. My personal thoughts and others get at parts of the whole. And my general thought of, "Why take snakes from the wild when there is almost no need to at all any more to do so?" ...For me includes all of the above. And I thought that there is some really good food for thought in the other response to the original question and to my opinions.

As for the whole idea of "snakes in captivity" in general...I still feel that wild snakes belong in the wild & our current huge population of c/b snakes would not even EXIST otherwise. So I will assert that if we provide them with proper conditions to thrive it sure beats the alternative. Also, having kept MANY kinds of pets over the past several decades: Since snakes are actually very easy to properly maintain with basic skills and resources, I feel that we have the ability to provide a decent existence for them much better than so many of the animals that folks attempt to keep. The pet trade is certainly here to stay, and I think that snakes are one of the most under-rated pets in the world. My 3 cents. The extra penny is a bunus.
Duffy

Duffy, thanks for the reply. Sometimes I feel like my snakes are "thinking" not about food but freedom. I do not think (I know) I would not want to be confined to the space we keep most captives in. I sometimes feel guilty about keeping them. I try to compensate by giving my adults large enclosures. Your right they live a lot longer in captivity and are healthier. I guess the question is what is better a healthy risk free existance or freedom. No answer expected.

Thanks,
Miller
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0.1 Florida King ('02 Pit & '00 Pearl)
1.1 Eastern Kings (2004 Orca & Sugar Pie)
1.0 Black Milksnake (2005 Bubba)
0.1 Okeetee Corn (Pumpkin)
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.2 Cats (Stella and Shug)
0.0.11 eggs a incubating!

Indeed, the original question involves SO many elements, most of which are simply not black or white, but a thousand shades of grey. And, as you point out, we are talking about more than just facts here...We are talking about FEELINGS (ours, of course). I strongly agree with your "cramped quarters" issue. One of the reasons that I don't keep two or three times as many snakes as I do is that I would not have space to house them the way I see fit.

Interestingly enough, my "simple" answer to the original question is: I think WILD snakes belong in the WILD. And that answer involves MY feelings. I also know that there are many folks on these forums who keep w/c animals who I have the utmost respect for, and value their opinoin on this matter as much as my own. The ones that really BUG me are the people snatching quantities of snakes from the wild for profit, and those who find a snake, put it in a cage, and later ask us why it is not thriving....I was just downstairs feeding a few of my snakes, and DAMN I like this hobby. Duffy

I live in an area that 50 years ago was a reptile paradise. I have watched it turn into an over-populated mess of various nationalities all of which seem determined to kill any snake that hasn't been paved over yet.

At this point we are talking about eradication by the gentle hands of humans or introduced exotics.

Simple answer: Survival beats Extinction.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank and Duffy, I am straddle the fence on this. I guess not that straddled since I own snakes! I think habitat distruction is just aweful. We clear cut five acres to build on one acre. I live in Houston and I see roadkill all the time be it snakes or other animal. Sometimes you can even see where the hit (attack) was intentional. I just want to provide my snake as nice a setup as possible and hope they enjoy it and long for the freedom we are discussing. I had a roommate that just left so I hope to take that room in my house and setup some nice display cages for my kids(snakes). I am feeding as well today and my corn decided to become a picky eater this week and refuse rat pups. You really do have to love this way of life! Oh, I would never leave and injured anything on the road if I could help it in anyway.

Miller
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0.1 Florida King ('02 Pit & '00 Pearl)
1.1 Eastern Kings (2004 Orca & Sugar Pie)
1.0 Black Milksnake (2005 Bubba)
0.1 Okeetee Corn (Pumpkin)
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.2 Cats (Stella and Shug)
0.0.11 eggs a incubating!

Thank you all for your thoughts on this subject, and I completely agree with the main point "If it's a rescue go for it and then release, otherwise let it be" Thanks to you all I will never go on a herping trip unless its along the side of the road for the occasional tire crushed snake.

> Thank you all for your thoughts on this subject, and I completely
> agree with the main point "If it's a rescue go for it and then
> release, otherwise let it be" Thanks to you all I will never go
> on a herping trip unless its along the side of the road for the
> occasional tire crushed snake.

Don't give up herping - catch, observe, release same day or just observe is quite rewarding.

herping does not have to include taking the animal home.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (gravid)

What are you implying here?

... I have to say I raised an eyebrow to that line in his/her repsonse. I choose to believe rearfang was implying everyone has a hand in affecting habitat distruction in a positive or negative way. I think it is hard to no someones intent in these forum so I try to assume good intent instead of bad.

Miller
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0.1 Florida King ('02 Pit & '00 Pearl)
1.1 Eastern Kings (2004 Orca & Sugar Pie)
1.0 Black Milksnake (2005 Bubba)
0.1 Okeetee Corn (Pumpkin)
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.2 Cats (Shug)
0.0.11 eggs a incubating!

> Interestingly enough, my "simple" answer to the original question
> is: I think WILD snakes belong in the WILD.

I tend to agree for a couple of reasons, but also disagree.

I have a bigger problem taking adults from the wild than hatchlings. Adults have demonstrated the ability and luck to survive in the wild, and probably should be given opportunity to pass their genes on in the wild. Snakes (like my large male) that are rescued from habitat destruction do not belong in the wild.

I do though feel there is a need, when a species has a stable wild population, to occasionally borrow from the wild.

In captivity, snakes that have poor genetics survive because survival of the fittest does not play a role. Wild snakes are more likely to be resistant to certain diseases and parasites, because the young that do not have the right gene combinations are less likely to reach adult status.

But in captivity, young without good resistance are less likely to die. Patterning and docile temperment are the key to passing on genes in captivity.

This can result in less liklihood of survival when they do contract something - such as my CB Baja King.

Bringing in males from the wild and breeding them with CB females can help refreshen the gene pool and result in strong lines.

Now - I'm not a biologist, so maybe that logic is just bull smurf.
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3.0 WC; 0.1 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 CB L. pyromelana pyromelana
0.1 WC Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata (gravid)

look down below on another real popular forum that made this whole web-site come into existence if I'm not mistaken. This site was based on the popular w/c species of that forum in my opinion and again if I'm not mistaken. Certainly no habitat destruction of this species and others found in the area. It is an ethical question of perceivable okay on yours, mine, and others part of w/c and keeping for any reason these days except for new or more viable blood-lines / gene pool. Unfortunately we have the " locality " issue that makes some w/c popular as to make any collecting more viable and or tries to grease the money wheel farther. Also unfortunately it also promotes more w/c of certain species to be collected just " because " whether bred or not. Am I making sense here and does anybody agree with the above ?
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Personally, I cannot abide the thought of leaving an injured snake to die a gruesome death on a highway. I have rescued several snakes that would not have survived their next encounter with a set of Goodyears. Consider how lucky a snake has to be to not be instantly fataly injured. Surprisingly, most that are not killed outright survive with care. Re-release to the wild is victory over the forces of deliberate and/or random automotive ophidiocide.

Below is a rescued WV Black Ratsnake.

Cheers,

John D.

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"

Not like we do, for sure. They react on a much more basic level. Do they want "freedom"?. It's not in their vocabulary. Getting out of their cage to crawl off into a corner w/no water and die is not what they look for (it happens). Looking for food or water or a mate or to thermo-regulate is what they want. The occasional adult taken from the wild to bring fresh bloodlines is far fewer than lost to predation. Then again, I keep nothing local, so it doesn't matter to me. I DO like hunting, catching, and releasing.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.0 Woma
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC